I recently had an online discussion with someone who believes that Trump is an utter failure and a cautionary tale because he "betrayed his supporters" by not pardoning the January 6 prisoners.
He had written the following:
Donald Trump squandered his shot. Now he’s paying for his failure. Many of the people who put their faith in him already are.
That last point is why Trump has proven unfit to lead and why no rational person should support him, even if he somehow makes it out of this mess he made. Trump has insufficient loyalty to his followers. That is not a momentary lapse of judgment. It is a persistent character flaw. When the chips are down, he will abandon his people again.
Barring some road to Damascus moment, that is. But even if Trump has a profound change of heart, he will need to prove it with concrete results before anyone should consider trusting him again.
Like all tragedies, Trump’s negative example can be an occasion for greater good. Otherwise smart, well-meaning people in positions of influence can take Trump’s removal from the board as a valuable lesson. There is no voting our way out of this – not with the electoral system totally compromised. Nor do we need a Boomer TV daddy to swoop in and save us.
In the discussion between him and me that followed, he wrote this as a response to one of my comments:
As for Trump’s loyalty, tell that to the hundreds of his supporters imprisoned in his name for January 6. He could have pardoned them before leaving office but left them to rot. Instead, he released thousands of black felons onto the streets.
I responded:
Pardoning them would have removed even the limited Republican Congressional and Senate support that he had during his impeachment trial, which was already barely enough to prevent him from being convicted. He would have been convicted in his impeachment and sent to jail for inciting an insurrection. The intelligence agencies would have tracked down thousands of other Trump supporters who were at the January 6 rally (using cell phone data) to arrest in retaliation for the ones that would have been pardoned. It would have been a suicide move; sometimes it’s necessary to live to fight another day.
Him:
That’s the problem with parroting talking points you hear online without stopping to think first. If you had, you’d have seen how the argument negates itself.
If a system is corrupt enough to tell the President “We’re illegally imprisoning and torturing these 300 people, and if you pardon them, we’ll imprison you and thousands more,” it is too corrupt to be bargained with. There are no checks to prevent it from prosecuting the President and his followers anyway.
Which is what we are seeing happen now. The FBI raided an ex-president’s home. Then they stopped a sitting congressman in transit and seized his phone. Leftist influencers are now calling for ordinary Trump voters to be arrested and crushed and their children orphaned. Who’s going to stop them? The same Republicans who threatened to convict Trump if he’d pardoned those same people?
The day the system proved itself illegitimate was the day Trump should have stood and fought (peacefully). Running to fight another day turned into just running. Now he’ll be jailed anyway. And so will many of his supporters.
Defending him now requires the same rationalization battered wives use to justify their abuse. It serves no one.
Another person in a follow-up discussion wrote this;
I can only speak for myself, but that is when he lost me. The Qult, as you call it, can torture language and logic all they want to rationalize this, but it’s betrayal, pure and simple. No good and decent man would have done this in the face of what Trump stood against.
If he was smart enough to be 10 steps ahead of the Deep State, or play the imaginary 4D chess at master level, as the Qultists frequently claim, he would have easily been able to predict the results of this betrayal.
What are your thoughts on this point of view?
How many were even arrested by Jan. 20 when Trump left office. FBeye waited for everyone to go home and they rounded them up later.
Yeah, was gonna say this. They didn’t start any legal process by the time Trump left to even allow him to pardon anyone... this argument that he didn’t pardon is retarded.
Doesn't there also need to be a conviction before there can be a pardon? The J6 prisoners have not even been given a trial, so technically how can they be pardoned?
No. Nixon was convicted of nothing and Ford granted a universal pardon to him even for any charges that might arise against him for any alleged past "crime" while in office.
Who actually thinks that Pelosi et.al., would actually honor a oardon for Jan 6..... You know.. The other person could be a shill. For DJT to grant a pardon, he would have to know who was there and that leads to fore-thought and planing leading to a way to prove he planned it....(in the mind of a leftist)..
Yep. Can't just issue some blanket proclamation. "Unknown people who committed yet to be known 'offenses' on jan 6 at the capitol are hereby pardoned!" Not only doesn't work, but would pardon the killer of Ashley Babbitt and other Capitol Police crimes. Plus any other crowd agitators and antifa etc.
We can talk hindsight, but I, for one, never considered the possibility that we would go full Stalin with the DC gulag. Nor that FBI would still be no knock raiding people on the other side of the country because they happened to be in the same city.
You could make the same argument re: FBI/Hillary Russia larps. "Why didn't he prosecute these people??"
There are a lot of things I might have done differently if it was me. But there's a helluva lot of shit I am not privy to that might have changed my thoughts if I was aware of all that.
The fact of the matter is that there is no glory in taking a righteous stand that results in being immediately routed. Ya, leaving them out to hang is not an optimal situation. But he didn't cause this, and he didn't send the FBI to bring them all to the gulag. This was plainly all of those goons.
The reason that they didn't ultimately convict Trump is that they were fully aware of the resulting backlash if they did so. Which might have been all for naught, given that you cannot impeach someone not a member of the government. They would have spent substantial political capital on negative results. Just look at what has happened to the people up for re-election that voted to impeach him...not looking so hot for them.
This guy basically thinks that Trump should have taken a righteous stand against insurmountable odds, and allowed them to completely remove him from the game board. This is the battle of hamburger hill, with a cost grossly disproportionate to the benefit, and that loses your war even if you win the fight. Pardoning them, if it were possible, results in a de facto admission of inciting muh erections.
I'm not trying to be insensitive here. It is egregious what they are doing to jan 6 people. It is egregious the horse shit undercover ops these people engineered to generate this result. But the fact of the matter is, people should have known that walking in there or hanging around during the mayhem was an extremely poor idea. Invited in by police or not. They don't deserve this, and they don't deserve any sort of punishment - save for the handful of dickheads that just went nuts doing bad shit. But they put themselves in that position by just going along with the crowd. Trump has no obligation to save them from themselves, no matter how they got in that position. He has an obligation to survive to continue the fight. Period.
Interesting. I didn't realize this. Do you know of any good documentation of this (that would seem credible to normies)?
is this "person" you are arguing with really a normie? or are they making themselves out to be a normie, but looking for any excuse to hate Trump? it is possible they carry on about this reason to find acceptance in both camps.
He's never been enthusiastic about Trump (and was always honest about that), but seems to have found him tolerable enough until after the 2020 election fraud and January 6, etc. He now sees him as a failure and disloyal.
I believe he's genuine in opposing the left and the corruption in our government; it's just that he thinks that Trump is like a used car salesman selling baby boomers false hope of turning back the clock to the 1980s.
he is making excuses to you to cover his leftist beliefs. imo. he never liked Trump and never will. he says he is conservative, but what policies does he want to see implemented? appeasement of the left? support for mccain/romney/mcconnell/cheney? he sounds like a lost cause to me, just dont let him drag you over to the left too.
He's not a leftist. He can't stand the McCain/Romney types, nor appeasement of the left.
He doesn't call himself a conservative, though. He believes that conservatism is more or less leftism in slow motion and failed to conserve anything. He's fond of Nick Fuentes.
Do we even know who all was arrested? Clearly some Patriots, but did they arrest some Deep State infiltrators as well "to legitimize". It is possible that there are some Deep State infiltrators rotting in jail as well that were fully expecting a Trump pardon that never came. They may have been told they would only be in jail for a couple weeks and then they couldn't be released for optics reasons when no Trump pardon came. And Deep State just sacrificing their pawns without a care.
This may be why the FBI went around to arrest more because they had expected them all to get released?
We may be able to file Federal third-party lawsuits against DOJ lawyers for "color of law" violations, but I can't figure out who we are truly dealing with for some of the Jan 6 prisoners.
So Trump would be pardoning FBI glowies after he left office?
Prisoners Of War, we are a nation occupied by foreign adversaries.
This
I've been reading the DOD Law of War manual to try to figure out if Deep State is complying with their obligations regarding prisoners captured in occupied territory of DC. I don't believe they are, and this may be additional grounds for military intervention. The whole Jan 6 things looks like a trap within a trap within a trap.
As soon as Trump announced the date and intent for rally, the Deep State started planning their infiltration, etc. But, whitehats also infiltrated and apparently grabbed laptops while they were hidden among people going in. And Trump delayed his speech/rally to set the optics properly and keep most of the Patriots out of the fray, and then told everyone to go home.
The Jan 6 event also gave away Deep State operation methods on geofencing and cell-tower spoofing publicly. I don't think it was well know before then. It also revealed/exposed the brutality of the Capital Police who appear to be actual Nazis.
Failure to understand what it means to be "at war".
War is ugly. War is hell. People die (are sacrificed) in war.
Until that becomes very well understood it is very difficult to make any sense of what is going on right now. Normal "politics" don't apply. The enemy gets a vote.
just what I wrote.
Also, they have NO idea of the sort of character it takes and the wounds it inflicts on a commander when he has no choice but to sacrifice his troops.
There aren't any! Crisis actor shill grift BS!
Came here to say this!!! You can tell by the pity party grift machine.
It's the same playbook over and over...same social media celebrity audit milking grifters push the "omg donate to dying, tortured J6 solitary confinement prisoners dying of cancer and dungeon conditions" grift. They are robbing the shit out of good people they convince to donate to their scams by exploiting their emotions.
Wouldn’t Trump pardoning J6 protestors be an admission on his part that an insurrection took place as a crime had been committed?
I have always suspected the ones being jailed are actually useful idiots/lefties and antifa, anyways, so it seems like a moot point.
When he is re-sworn into office in 2024, he pardons all of them, compensates them for what the democratic nazis did, and throws their abusers in jail for life.
I was there on the platform between the bleachers and I’m 95% sure I stood next to an FBI guy who came up beside me and started kicking on a door. When it happened it was surreal AF and seemed wrong and off. The guy was tall, slender, well groomed and definitely took care of himself. He looked very much like that meme pic that we all see of the FBI bros trying to blend in. With the benefit of hindsight I know now why it seemed so off to me. I hope that piece of shit is wasting away in gittmo!
My money is on the fact that no one that is a DT supporter and was there is “actually” locked up. I’m betting at this point it’s all part of the show.
Yep, my take. Just sucks the scam-clowns robbing innocent people with the donations grift.
Pretty much, I wonder how many of these people who "no longer support Trump" ACTUALLY mean "Well, I WAS going to support Trump, cross my heart, but..." and then just came up with whatever excuse they could.
Or they're the people who didn't vote at all and want to still feelike they did the right thing
To be specific, American Frontline Doctors is saying that their spokeswoman, Dr. Simone Gold, is imprisoned for reading her statement in the Capitol building on January 6. She was sentenced to two months.
Yes, I agree that these accounts are probably fake.
Ok, so they don't want to vote for POTUS Trump...who will they vote for instead of him?
This is BS.
Agreed, all I've seen is nothing but more support for President Trump among the people I know, including former Demoncrat supporters.
I haven't met one who changed their allegiance from President Trump to someone else like Resident PedoJoe Bidet.
Fake concern shills planting an anti-Trump propaganda narrative
My thoughts exactly. Start drumming up that propaganda that Trump failed us all to make the weak ones run for cover.
Plus, let’s be real here: the people that went to DC on the 6th we’re either too stupid or naïve to believe nothing was going to happen to them if things went south. If you want your country back, you’re gonna have to fight for it, and if you get caught, TPTB are not going to play nice. They are going to take hostages, throw people in prison and do everything disgusting thing that you can think of.
This is a war, and if you don’t realize it by now, you need to step to the side if you can’t face the realities.
Exactly. This whole narrative is CIA psyop, don't fall for it. Reality doesn't match this bullshit. They are running the same play they ran in 2010-11 to try to co-opt the Tea Party movement and diffuse the energy. Trump has 70-80% of the people behind him now. It looks to me like he had nearly 70% in the 2020 election. I don't think Biden got more than 40 million legit votes max, and Trump may have gotten over 100M (rough numbers).
Hahaha. Beat me too it.
DIVISION FAG ALERT!!!!
Different direction response - the only thing that Trump could have done between Jan 7th and Jan 19th would be issue a BLANKET Pardon for everyone who was in the Capitol or on the Capitol grounds. This would have given Ray Epps and his Fed Followers a freebie for the day. (Even though it already seems like the are free.)
Couldn't he pardon just the basic charges, like the trespass equivalent, and not anything like attacking police or whatever you believe Ray Epps types should be charged with.
this is brilliant.
We were told that everything we here is a lie. What makes you think their are actual J6 prisoners or that any of them committed suicide. How do you not know this is just put out to wake people up. Even if there are J6 prisoners Trump could not have pardoned them because if he did he would be slammed 24/7 and would never have been able to wake up the people he did. I personally would rather have just seen them stop the 2020 theft like they did 2016 by cutting off the outside players and started arresting. But then again I am not intelligence agency that can think it all the way through and neither are you. If there are J6 prisoners and when they do get out and Trump is back in I am guessing they will get millions for their mistreatment.
Those are not the words of anyone who ever supported Trump
Shills are in panic mode
Don't try and bend the spoon...instead, only try to realize the truth...
https://greatawakening.win/p/15JAh1WvRK/documentation-that-most-january-/
I think that this thread is the other half of the one we're commenting on here. How many people were arrested in the 15 days Trump was still President and retained power to pardon them and which ones were they?
I don't know and unless someone can produce a detailed spreadsheet with dates of indictments for J6 folk on it from Sydney Powell or something, no one commenting on any of these 3 posts (counting the original post you had your conversation in where the guy recounted his bullshit logic of why he no longer supports Trump) has any idea of what Trump knew at any given time nor what if anything he might've been able to do for them.
This is the same logic some on the extreme left who supported Trump used to criticize him, except those folks ACTUALLY HAD A BETTER POINT, and swap out 'J6 people' for 'Edward Snowden' that Trump should've pardoned. The same reasoning is applied: Republican support to vote against his impeachment would've evaporated had he pardoned Snowden, and so he played along in order to save himself. Here is Glenn Greenwald on the topic. It seems like these shills you've encountered have just wholesale swapped the J6 wrongfully arrested with important political prisoners like Assange and Snowden, and personally I'd say Greenwald has a much better argument than they do according to my own sense of justice.
Anyhow, it's a really good topic and I was not aware people actually held Trump to account about this, no matter how very misguided they are. Thanks for bringing it to light.
Godspeed!
Sorry, I can't cast judgement as the movie plays on. When we get to the end, I'll let you know. Life ain't fair, trust me I know first hand, and we go on for another day. Black pilled people are the worst, they're negative as hell and think they know it all.
More importantly, why are you debating with Qult HQ?
It's not Qult HQ. He's a science fiction author that I occasionally cross paths with on the Internet. He's right-wing, but a little on the Vox Day-ish side of things.
Ugh. I know the type...
This is all so much bigger than their minds can imagine. Every agency is infiltrated with enemies. Enemies are foreign and domestic coming from every angle. They can't hope to see the angles of all of this that Trump sees. I know this is all vague and doesn't serve to debate with......... which is why I don't get into those debates.
Short version: your friend is a fucking retard.
He claims your idea negates itself and proceeds to negate his own point... He's not using logic. He's resolved his worldview and no amount of facts and logic will change that. He chooses to have an irrational disdain for a man he doesn't even know and until he can get over his own arrogance, he won't hear you.
Trump did initially lose support in 2021 and understandably so. But you were right, he couldn't do anything. He can't do or say anything for the reasons you brought up. Assuming he is the good guy he appears to be (skeptical cause I don't know him personally), I bet every casualty of war pains him.
The only point I would give is the quote Trump made about us willing to fight a civil war for him and the fact that he never made ANY call to arms and specifically instructed all of us to remain LEGAL and PEACEFUL.
"Well he didn't have support by then."
How would he know that? Also, show him crowd clips of Trump rallies.
Who was arrested before Trump left office?
How is Trump supposed the pardoned anyone. He's out of office and has been since days after Jan. 6. At least apparently if not truly out of office. So either he has no power to pardon anyone or he could be would show his hand. How stupid is this person? They were never MAGA.
He can write a pardon for future litigation, that’s writhin his purview.
Most if not all the people that are in jail right now from the January 6 event, we’re not arrested until after he left office. End of story.
This doesn't seem like any conversation a rational person would have. Not a single logical soul would be Pro Trump for 6 years, then because of January 6th say he is unloyal and unfit to lead. This is either completely made up or coming from someone who has always hated Trump.
Given the large number of people who were arrested and such, what have we actually confirmed?
For me it's two things:
If true and there was nothing that could be done about it, the people involved will be known and be on the receiving end of military justice down the line. There will be losses and casualties when the Deep State hits back. This isn't going to be a fairy tale ending.
If it was mostly a hoax to gaslight people and to make talking points with a majority being crisis actors, then it's probably bait and Trump is better off using it as a talking point against the Deep State rather than bite.
There is a bigger picture. This isn't just about saving a few. There is no promise that all of us will be alive and well after this.
Saving humanity doesn't mean saving each individual person at the cost of the greater goal.
I don't care about anyone else's opinion: Trump didn't really have any pardoning power as (like others have said) the Gestapo waited until people went home and many of them were taken after the Usurper sat on his throne.
Obviously this dynamic changes if you are convinced Trump is still the President (he's MY President in any case, as I do not recognize the Usurper or his illegal government) but I digress.
What I do believe is that Trump should have voiced a lot more in favor of the prisoners over the past year and a half. That is absolutely a pitfall and it does have consequences for a lot of people
What if many/most of the J6 prisoners are the deep state Ukrainian agitators that we know were there?
When Trump was a private citizen, he was pointing out peculiarities with Obama’s birth certificate. He was hinting at the truth of the Deep State years ago. His inauguration speech was historic and aimed directly at our captors.
I don’t understand many of his decisions, but I do think he is the public face of a Patriot group that is working to defeat these psychopaths. Despite some of the confusion that surrounds him right now, his overall trajectory from a good decade ago or more has been that of a man who is fighting a very powerful force.
I would say they need a history lesson. Trump could have pardoned them. But the risk of that is monumental. The media was already painting him as an insurrectionist. Pardoning thr bad actors would have solidified their BS against Trump. Saying he is a failure for not acting in the moment is ignorant. Trump did not have all the power to stop it. He did not have power to prevent it. That is largely due to how deep the corruption goes.
Id ask them what they prefer. Thise people be pardoned only to be rejailed by Biden and his loonies. Or taking the hard road and letting them sit there while the house is cleaned. There is only one road to victory and pardoning them would have nullified that.
Shill rhetoric, plain and simple. Honestly - even discussing it gives them too much credit. This is/are individual(s) who are pretending to be “good guys” by presenting what seems a logical argument, but each point is a stab-in-your-back criticism that Carrie’s no logic. It’s just another hit piece. You can see the type coming a mile away.
These sound like shill comments. I have never run into a single person who thinks Trump is a failure because of Jan 6 prisoners.
They are really grasping at straws trying to find something to convince Trump supporters yhat in reality he was a bad president...
These people are stupid.
Trump has done quite a few things I don't understand, and left undone others I had hoped for. I support him but think he is prone to error same as any Human...
I think God used Trump, I hope that happens again. But when the Hand of God is not micromanaging Trump it is not unusual for Trump to make mistakes. He said he would not sign a CR which failed to contain wall money yet he did, for instance.
And this may not be a mistake, we don't yet know for certain. Trump told them all to be Peaceful - they were not. He should have known that arrests would happen and probably did, sometimes a hand has to be played regardless of damages incurred.
Trump delayed his speech for a while, possibly to cause the DS to jump the gun and they seem to have done so. Remind your friend that Trump told everyone to remain Peaceful, and they did not. It is not Trump's fault they were arrested and sure enough not his fault our double damned corrupt government is persecuting the Jan 6ers, and 'this too' is a scheduled stop on the Trump Train.
We are roughly On Schedule too, I think. After all this time and through all these way stations and checkpoints, we are roughly On Schedule it seems.
Contrast Trump telling everyone to remain Peaceful against biden and Harris urging BLM terrorists and antifa terrorist to burn and then bailing them out.
https://files.catbox.moe/buhmvz.jpg
Despite the flaws the man has, he appears to be the best shot in getting our government back. All this injustice in our courts, the utter corruption, the demoncraps passing multi trillion dollar bills, endless wars, rampart crime, the destruction of our infrastructure, destroying our live stock and small family farms, gun confiscation being right around the corner, An army of gun totting IRS thugs, Illegal immigrates flood our nation, Toxic so called vaccines being forced down our throats, massive election fraud, and the list goes on. Our leaders are absolute psychopaths.
Haven’t encountered this angle before actually. By far the most common angle of attack I see is by obvious glowie shills: “Trump is a jew/Israel puppet”, or “he tried to fight the DS, was good at rhetoric and opened the Overton window, but was not a doer, so he lost the chess match and now is cowing to the deepstate under threat of retaliation against his family. We need to rally behind DeSantis, he’s a doer!”
Neither argument makes any sense imho of course, since they could have just as easily been made since first day of his presidency.
Sad idiots. (There, I said it.)
They have NO concept of the meaning of war, and what it costs a commander, or a commander in chief to sacrifice his troops.
They have no inkling, and see only from their own limited, selfish narrow viewpoint.
Go then. Move on. You're NOT worthy of a president like DJT. Go, and good riddance.
The Jan 6th "protestors" were probably agent provacauers. Especially the shaman dude and podium man.
Shaman Dude and Podium Man- Most Likely. The Gateway Pundit had a few stories about them earlier. Some of these others, such as Dr. Simone Gold - Not A Chance!
I view comments like this as their excuse not to get involved, or they lie.