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GreatAwakening
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Reason: None provided.

My comment was about eschatological (end times) viewpoints not predestination but since you brought it up.....

I've never read Calvin. I avoid doing so for just this reason. My position on salvation is from scripture and how God saved me when I didn't want to be saved.

When we are "dead in our sin" it's an act of God that transforms us. "No one seeks after God, no not one"

Saying you have free will to chose God goes against your nature. It's God's grace that saves us, not our own free will. Just like when Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. Did Lazarus have anything to do with it? No. Did God violate his free will to live? No. That was beyond Lazarus's ability to chose just like us when we are dead in our sin.

I didn't choose God. It was the last thing I wanted at the time. I was a militant athiest and hostile towards God and Christianity. But God chose me anyways, showed me my sin, brought me to repentance, and gave me a heart of flesh to replace my heart of stone. It was a radical transformation on the floor in front of a window. 20 years of drug addiction broken in an unwanted instant. The only thing I contributed to my salvation was the sin that required a savior. My humility knowing that truth and my awe of God's amazing grace is that much more. I hope you come to know that yourself. I won't call you immature in the process however.

The Father I know is not that Father. He predestines no one to damnation. Such a God would not be a Father of love, but a father of abuse.

You forgot that justice is one of His qualities. The real question you should be asking is why He would chose to save any of us. I'd suggest reading The Potter's Freedom to better understand the fact that God makes some vessels to contain His wrath and some to save.

Scripture is clear, God is sovereign over everything including salvation ....

  1. John 6:44... No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  2. Proverbs 16:4... The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
  3. Proverbs 16:9... A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.
  4. Proverbs 19:21... There are many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.
  5. Proverbs 20:24... Man’s goings are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?
  6. Proverbs 21:1... The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
  7. Job 42:2... I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
  8. Isaiah 14:24... The Lord of host hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
  9. Isaiah 14:27... For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
  10. Isaiah 46:9-10... Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
  11. Isaiah 48:3... I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
  12. Jeremiah 1:5... Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
  13. Psalms 139:16... Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
  14. John 3:3... Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  15. John 3:5... Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
  16. John 3:27... John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
  17. John 6:39... And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
  18. John 6:45... It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
  19. John 6:64-65... But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
  20. John 8:47... He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
  21. John 10:14... I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
  22. John 10:16... And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
  23. John 10:26-29... But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
  24. John 13:18... I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
  25. John 14:6... Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
  26. John 15:16... Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
  27. John 15:19... If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
  28. John 17:2-3... As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is eternal life, that they might know thee only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
  29. John 17:6... I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
  30. John 17:9-12... I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name; those that thou hast given me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
  31. John 17:16... They are not of this world, even as I am not of this world.
  32. Acts 13:48... And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
  33. Romans 8:28-30... And we know all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
  34. 1 Corinthians 12:3... Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
  35. Galatians 1:15-16... But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
  36. Ephesians 1:4-5... According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
  37. Ephesians 1:11... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
  38. Ephesians 2:8-9... For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
  39. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14... But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  40. 2 Timothy 1:9.... Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
  41. 1 Peter 1:20-21... Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
  42. 1 Peter 2:2... Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
  43. 1 Peter 2:1-5... Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
  44. Revelation 17:8... The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
  45. Job 37:16... Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
  46. Psalm 147:5... Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
  47. 1 Corinthians 3:6-7... I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
  48. Proverbs 16:33... The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.
  49. Isaiah 45:7... I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
  50. Genesis 6:5... And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
2 years ago
1 score
Reason: Original

I've never read Calvin. I avoid doing so for just this reason. My position is from scripture.

When we are "dead in our sin" it's an act of God that transforms us. "No one seeks after God, no not one"

Saying you have free will to chose God goes against your nature. It's God's grace that saves us, not our own free will. Just like when Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. Did Lazarus have anything to do with it? No. Did God violate his free will to live? No. That was beyond Lazarus's ability to chose just like us when we are dead in our sin.

I didn't choose God. It was the last thing I wanted at the time. God chose me, showed me my sin, brought me to repentance, and gave me a heart of flesh to replace my heart of stone. It was a radical transformation on the floor in front of a window.

The Father I know is not that Father. He predestines no one to damnation. Such a God would not be a Father of love, but a father of abuse.

You forgot that justice is one of His qualities. The real question you should be asking is why He would chose to save any of us. I'd suggest reading The Potter's Freedom to better understand the fact that God makes some vessels to contain His wrath and some to save.

Scripture is clear....

  1. John 6:44... No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  2. Proverbs 16:4... The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
  3. Proverbs 16:9... A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.
  4. Proverbs 19:21... There are many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.
  5. Proverbs 20:24... Man’s goings are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?
  6. Proverbs 21:1... The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
  7. Job 42:2... I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
  8. Isaiah 14:24... The Lord of host hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
  9. Isaiah 14:27... For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
  10. Isaiah 46:9-10... Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
  11. Isaiah 48:3... I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
  12. Jeremiah 1:5... Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
  13. Psalms 139:16... Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
  14. John 3:3... Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  15. John 3:5... Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
  16. John 3:27... John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
  17. John 6:39... And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
  18. John 6:45... It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
  19. John 6:64-65... But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
  20. John 8:47... He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
  21. John 10:14... I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
  22. John 10:16... And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
  23. John 10:26-29... But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
  24. John 13:18... I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
  25. John 14:6... Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
  26. John 15:16... Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
  27. John 15:19... If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
  28. John 17:2-3... As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is eternal life, that they might know thee only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
  29. John 17:6... I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
  30. John 17:9-12... I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name; those that thou hast given me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
  31. John 17:16... They are not of this world, even as I am not of this world.
  32. Acts 13:48... And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
  33. Romans 8:28-30... And we know all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
  34. 1 Corinthians 12:3... Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
  35. Galatians 1:15-16... But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
  36. Ephesians 1:4-5... According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
  37. Ephesians 1:11... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
  38. Ephesians 2:8-9... For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
  39. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14... But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  40. 2 Timothy 1:9.... Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
  41. 1 Peter 1:20-21... Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
  42. 1 Peter 2:2... Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
  43. 1 Peter 2:1-5... Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
  44. Revelation 17:8... The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
  45. Job 37:16... Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
  46. Psalm 147:5... Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
  47. 1 Corinthians 3:6-7... I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
  48. Proverbs 16:33... The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.
  49. Isaiah 45:7... I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
  50. Genesis 6:5... And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
2 years ago
1 score