Thanks for the great reply. I'm very interested in hearing personal experiences of salvation, and my comments were not meant to be demeaning or dismissive of your views.
I continue to hold the view that the predestination view (which is to say that God decides everything) is a partial or immature view of God and His salvation process and salvation grace, etc.
It's a complex subject; if it wasn't, would there be more than 500+ denominations, all varying in their theological interpretation of scripture, not to mention the millions of variations that are not formalized in theological texts or teachings, but adopted by faithful Christians throughout history and the world over?
Because it is a complex subject, I think it can be very challenging to discuss it in a meaningful way, because in many cases (not all) a common framework needs to be achieved and indeed constructed before different views can even be understood.
For example, "God is sovereign over everything". What this means to you and what this means to me be can be (and it seems are) very different things.
HOW we understand God's sovereignty, in other words. Even if we agree on certain statements expressed in words, what our concepts are of those things can differ and often do.
I'm usually quite happy to discuss such matters - actually, my favorite topic in the world - because I believe that there are aspects of truth and accordingly value found in every perspective. The tricky thing is sifting the wheat from the chaff.
Moreover, the fact that you threw 50 verses of scripture at me as if this somehow proves your personal view and interpretation isn't encouraging. I almost wrote a note on this sort of thing at the end of my comment, but decided to omit it.
But I'll add the note here, seeing as your reply raises a very relevant context.
But firstly, let me disclaim one thing:
I do not believe that differences in theological outlook are of primary concern to our Father. I believe he is much more concerned with the content of our hearts.
The note is this
I do believe that every single believer is responsible and has a choice as to what they believe.
After reflecting on belief, faith and scripture for more than 20 years, I realized that some believers do not even acknowledge that. They say "I believe THIS because the Bible says THIS", where THIS = the same thing. They fail to acknowledge or recognize that they choose to understand the scripture they are looking at in a particular way. Thus, they negate their own human agency, created by God.
I'll give you an example. You cut out a key point (in my opinion).
you wrote: "Scripture is clear, God is sovereign over everything including salvation"
What you didn't write, or acknowledge, is that "Scripture is clear to me: God is sovereign over everything including salvation"
You've managed to make YOUR statement of faith as if it is an absolute thing, regardless of you're part in it.
This behavior can lead to unfortunate outcomes. They tend to interpret scripture literally, and, doing so, justify THEIR belief and or understanding s somehow being perfect because it is GOD who decided, not them. They make themselves equivalent to God in the process.
I suspect you do not agree with this view, and that's OK. Maybe your think your view is infallible? I don't know, but I'm curious. Because, to my way of thinking, if I can admit that I am fallible, then I have to admit that maybe, it's possible, that how I understand scripture is fallible too.
Some people simply cannot do that, because (I believe) they are not secure enough in their relationship with God through love. At least, that's what I've observed. IF we admit that our understanding of truth MIGHT be fallible, we also admit that a) we can learn and grow in that understanding, b) that I am responsible to some extent for what I choose to believe, c) that I can learn through others if I pay attention, and d) that God trusts me.
This IS a rather deep point, arrived at over many years of a living relationship with faith and with our Father.
Thank you for the suggestion to read the Potter's Freedom.
As I said before, and I do not mean this disparagingly, I'm merely being frank and honest, I wonder if there is any use in discussing or sharing if you are convinced of your own infallibility in terms of how you understand scripture? It might sound like a backhanded compliment, but for me, there is a direct connection with recognizing my own fallibility and honoring God's grace and trust in me.
Either way, I'll try, and await your response.
One topic is salvation. In my view, you have confused God's grace and authority over us with our own responsibility. I mean, I could also quote scripture, but I don't want to get in a scripture flinging match. (In my view, that's often driven by arrogance and frankly I find it disrespectful to God's scripture.) Having said that "knock and the door will be opened".
Who creates the door? God and Christ. Can we create the door? No. But who knocks on the door? We do.
My point is not that God is not sovereign (He is) and not that we can somehow achieve salvation by our own means (we cannot). Rather, that part of God's design and grace is that His work is a shared project. God creates us, then as a free gift to us (not one that we can earn or otherwise), he grants to us a role in his work. As for example, a Father might when he builds a house and then says to his little boy, when it is all but complete, "Come here, Jacob, and hit this nail into the hinge here on the front door". When Jacob hits the nail in, then from that moment forward, his father can say "my son and I created this door. It's ours."
I understand you don't believe this (if I'm reading your correctly) and I'm not attempting to convince you that this is true. I'm sharing with an open heart how I understand God, our Father. If there is anything to learn from that, or any benefit from sharing in that way, well, that's up to you to decide.
I say this also because the value and love I feel for others, including you, is not determined by whether I think they understand truth enough or not (no one but the Father and Christ have a perfect understanding, in my view). So I have no bone in attempting to convince anyone else. Indeed, that's certainly something I leave up to God. Because he loves you and I also, not based on our understanding of scripture (in my view), but based on the content of our hearts. Or to be more correct, God's love for you and I is unconditional, but the contents of our hearts is far more precious to him than our understanding of scripture.
Why? Because our understanding of scripture can become the very thing that blocks us from a relationship with God, if we allow it to stand in the central position in our hearts, instead of love and instead of God.
How do I know? Aside from life experience, I'll refer to the example of the Jewish leaders at Jesus' time. They valued their own view of scripture more than love. They were convinced they were infallible in their understanding of scripture, and it prevented them from even responding to Jesus. Instead, those who knew almost nothing of scripture or who had very limited knowledge of scripture compared to the scribes, etc, DID respond to Jesus. They became his disciples.
So Jesus ministry itself is lesson in what kind of attitude we should have towards our own view of scripture vs what kind of heart we have.
I understand that you believe God chose you and that you were not a factor. There is nothing wrong with having deep humility before God, as long as that humility does not evolve into arrogance of thinking in a way that prevents God from opening up NEW understanding to us.
And, I mean, how do you know? Really? I accept your conviction, but do you know everything? No. You know what you know, and you do not know what you do not know.
Is it possible that God saw certain aspects of your character in childhood? When you were 2? Or 5? or 10? Things that you yourself have forgotten? Or that you may have not even been aware of? Sure. Who is to know that there was not some part of your heart that actually longed for God? Or maybe you know everything?
Here's a secret. In every single heart, there is a part that longs for and desires to reach out to God, to be embraced and loved and valued.
In my experience, you don't become an atheist or an addict without there being some cause in trauma, anguish or suffering. Again, I'm certainly NOT denying God's agency here. I'm not saying that you can define everything or what God does or doesn't do. God is free.
The real point here is that we children of God are created as responsive creatures. That's our nature. We did not create our universe, and we did not give birth to ourselves. But we DO co-create with the Father, by the choices we make.
Our believing in Jesus is the work of God, something we ourselves can perform.
Anyway, your story of being redeemed is wonderful. It's powerful. Personally, I believe there is much more waiting for you and I both. I liken salvation to a doorway. Christ provides the door, but we do have a role, and once we walk through the door, but part of what comes after is shaped by us together with God (in my view).
I appreciate the sense that you were dead in sin and that God plucked you out of it. It's an amazing story of Grace.
And, at the end of the day, beyond all rational thought or logic, the simple fact (perhaps you and I can both agree on this?) is that salvation is an unfathomable miracle.
Your salvation (which is God's alone to give) may have come to you because of the virtue of others. It may have been prayers you are unaware of. It may have been a choice you actually made as a child. Or the great virtue of your ancestors moved God's heart. (This is not to say one can cause one's own salvation - one cannot) Or simply God's incredible heart moved in pity because of your suffering. What made God decide to rescue you? Have you ever asked him?
In conclusion, I'd like to respond to the 50 quotes you kind of threw at me. I'll offer one back.
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
.....
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
I'm sure you know where this is from.
A blessing on you brother. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate your heart to share how you understand God's truth.
Thanks for the great reply. I'm very interested in hearing personal experiences of salvation, and my comments were not meant to be demeaning or dismissive of your views.
I continue to hold the view that the predestination view (which is to say that God decides everything) is a partial or immature view of God and His salvation process and salvation grace, etc.
It's a complex subject; if it wasn't, would there be more than 500+ denominations, all varying in their theological interpretation of scripture, not to mention the millions of variations that are not formalized in theological texts or teachings, but adopted by faithful Christians throughout history and the world over?
Because it is a complex subject, I think it can be very challenging to discuss it in a meaningful way, because in many cases (not all) a common framework needs to be achieved and indeed constructed before different views can even be understood.
For example, "God is sovereign over everything". What this means to you and what this means to me be can be (and it seems are) very different things.
HOW we understand God's sovereignty, in other words. Even if we agree on certain statements expressed in words, what our concepts are of those things can differ and often do.
I'm usually quite happy to discuss such matters - actually, my favorite topic in the world - because I believe that there are aspects of truth and accordingly value found in every perspective. The tricky thing is sifting the wheat from the chaff.
Moreover, the fact that you threw 50 verses of scripture at me as if this somehow proves your personal view and interpretation isn't encouraging. I almost wrote a note on this sort of thing at the end of my comment, but decided to omit it.
But I'll add the note here, seeing as your reply raises a very relevant context.
But firstly, do let me disclaim a few things:
one, I do not believe that differences in theological outlook are of primary concern to our Father. I believe he is much more concerned with the content of our hearts.
two, I do believe that every single believer is responsible and has a choice as to what they believe.
After reflecting on belief, faith and scripture for more than 20 years, I realized that some believers do not even acknowledge that. They say "I believe THIS because the Bible says THIS", where THIS = the same thing. They fail to acknowledge or recognize that they choose to understand the scripture they are looking at in a particular way. Thus, they negate their own human agency, created by God.
I'll give you an example. You cut out a key point (in my opinion).
you wrote: "Scripture is clear, God is sovereign over everything including salvation"
What you didn't write, or acknowledge, is that "Scripture is clear to me: God is sovereign over everything including salvation"
You've managed to make YOUR statement of faith as if it is an absolute thing, regardless of you're part in it.
This behavior can lead to unfortunate outcomes. They tend to interpret scripture literally, and, doing so, justify THEIR belief and or understanding s somehow being perfect because it is GOD who decided, not them. They make themselves equivalent to God in the process.
I suspect you do not agree with the second point, and that's OK. Maybe your think your view is infallible. I don't know, but I'm curious. Because, if you admit that you are fallible, then you have to admit that maybe, it's possible, that how you understand scripture is fallible too.
Some people simply cannot do that, because they are not secure enough in their relationship with God through love. At least, that's what I've observed. IF we admit that our understanding of truth MIGHT be fallible, we also admit that a) we can learn and grow in that understanding, b) that I am responsible to some extent for what I choose to believe, c) that I can learn through others if I pay attention.
This IS a rather deep point, arrived at over many years of a living relationship with faith and with our Father.
Thank you for the suggestion to read the Potter's Freedom.
As I said before, and I do not mean this disparagingly, I'm merely being frank and honest, I wonder if there is any use in discussing or sharing if you are convinced of your own infallibility in terms of how you understand scripture.
Either way, I'll try, and await your response.
One topic is salvation. In my view, you have confused God's grace and authority over us with our own responsibility. I mean, I could also quote scripture, but I don't want to get in a scripture flinging match. In my view, that's arrogant and disrespectful to scripture. Having said that "knock and the door will be opened".
Who creates the door? God and Christ. Can we create the door? No. But who knocks on the door? We do.
My point is not that God is not sovereign (He is) and not that we can somehow achieve salvation by our own means (we cannot). Rather, that part of God's design and grace is that His work is a shared project. God creates us, then as a free gift to us (not one that we can earn or otherwise), he grants to us a role in his work. As for example, a Father might when he builds a house and then says to his little boy, when it is all but complete, "Come here, Jacob, and hit this nail into the hinge here on the front door". When Jacob hits the nail in, then from that moment forward, his father can say "my son and I created this door. It's ours."
I understand you don't believe this (if I'm reading your correctly) and I'm not attempting to convince you that this is true. I'm sharing with an open heart how I understand God, our Father. If there is anything to learn from that, or any benefit from sharing in that way, well, that's up to you to decide.
I say this also because the value and love I feel for others, including you, is not determined by whether I think they understand truth enough or not (no one by the Father and CHrist have a perfect understanding, in my view). So I have no bone in attempting to convince anyone else. Indeed, that's certainly something I leave up to God. Because he loves you and I also, not based on our understanding of scripture (in my view), but based on the content of our hearts. Or to be more correct, God's love for you and I is unconditional, but the contents of our hearts is far more precious to him than our understanding of scripture.
Why? because our understanding of scripture can become the very thing that blocks us from a relationship with God, if we allow it to stand in the central position in our hearts, instead of love and instead of God.
How do I know? Aside from life experience, I'll refer to the example of the Jewish leaders at Jesus' time. They valued their own view of scripture more than love. They were convinced they were infallible in their understanding of scripture, and it prevented them from even responding to Jesus. Instead, those who knew almost nothing of scripture or who had very limited knowledge of scripture compared to the scribes, etc, DID respond to Jesus. They became his disciples.
So Jesus ministry itself is lesson in what kind of attitude we should have towards our own view of scripture vs what kind of heart we have.
I understand that you believe God chose you and that you were not a factor. There is nothing wrong with having deep humility before God, as long as that humility does not evolve into arrogance of thinking in a way that prevents God from opening up NEW understanding to us.
And, I mean, how do you know? Really? I accept your conviction, but do you know everything? No. You know what you know, and you do not know what you do not know.
Is it possible that God saw certain aspects of your character in childhood? When you were 2? Or 5? or 10? Things that you yourself have forgotten? Or that you may have not even been aware of? Sure. Who is to know that there was not some part of your heart that actually longed for God? Or maybe you know everything?
Here's a secret. In every single heart, there is a part that longs for and desires to reach out to God, to be embraced and loved and valued.
In my experience, you don't become an atheist or an addict without there being some cause in trauma, anguish or suffering. Again, I'm certainly NOT denying God's agency here. I'm not saying that you can define everything or what God does or doesn't do. God is free.
The real point here is that we children of God are created as responsive creatures. That's our nature. We did not create our universe, and we did not give birth to ourselves. But we DO co-create with the Father, by the choices we make.
This is NOT to discount God's pivotal role. Actually, when we acknowledge our part in His great work, whether it is to bring His salvation to the World, a work he freely invites all to participate in, or whether it is in creating or recreating ourselves by uniting with Him, cooperating with Him, and adopting his ways, when we acknowledge our potential role in His great work, THIS is how we honor him. As Christ taught us: “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”
Our believing in Jesus is the work of God, something we ourselves can perform.
Anyway, your story of being redeemed is wonderful. It's powerful. Personally, I believe there is much more waiting for you and I both. I liken salvation to a doorway. Christ provides the door, but we do have a role, and once we walk through the door, then what comes after is shaped by us.
I appreciate the sense that you were dead in sin and that God plucked you out of it. It's an amazing story of Grace. But in my view, if you deny that you yourself may have been part of that process, you actually deny God's nature. Why? Because God is both creator and initiator, but God is also responsive. God CAN respond, as we see in his relationship with Moses, not to mention Jesus, too.
Your salvation (which is God's alone to give) may have come to you because of the virtue of others. It may have been prayers you are unaware of. It may have been a choice you actually made as a child. Or the great virtue of your ancestors moved God's heart. (This is not to say one can cause one's own salvation - one cannot) Or simply God's incredible heart moved in pity because of your suffering.
Inconclusive, I'd like to respond to the 50 quotes you kind of threw at me. I'll offer one back.
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
.....
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
I'm sure you know where this is from.
A blessing on you brother. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate your heart to share how you understand God's truth.