<Dominion has entered the chat>

Thanks for your response! Let's delve into the symbolism in Revelation 12-13 and see how it aligns with our discussion.

1. Revelation 12: The Pregnant Woman:

   • Your interpretation of the pregnant woman as representing the New Covenant and spirit-filled believers is insightful. Traditionally, many interpret the woman as Israel or the faithful remnant of God's people, who give birth to the Messiah (Revelation 12:1-2). This aligns with the imagery of the sun, moon, and stars, pointing to Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-11.
   • The dragon (Satan) trying to devour the child represents the efforts to destroy Jesus and, by extension, the early Christian movement (Revelation 12:4-5). Rome, under Herod, attempted to kill Jesus at birth (Matthew 2:13-16), and later, Roman persecution targeted Christians.

2. The Dragon's Pursuit (Revelation 12:13-17):

   • The dragon pursuing the woman and her offspring symbolizes ongoing persecution of the faithful. The flood from the serpent’s mouth (Revelation 12:15) can indeed be interpreted as false teachings or widespread deception aimed at diluting true faith.

3. Revelation 13: The Beasts:

   • The first beast from the sea represents the Roman Empire with its seven heads and ten horns (Revelation 13:1), symbolizing its power and authority. The distinction between pagan Rome and later Christianized Rome can be noted here.
   • The second beast from the earth, which looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon (Revelation 13:11), is often interpreted as the false prophet or the corrupt religious system that compels worship of the first beast. This could align with the idea of the Holy Roman Empire enforcing religious uniformity and persecution.

4. Wound and Healing (Revelation 13:3, 13:12):

   • The deadly wound of the first beast being healed could symbolize the resurgence of oppressive power. Some see this as the revival of Roman imperial power through the Holy Roman Empire or other forms of authoritarian control.

5. Faithful vs. Unfaithful Israel:

   • You’re right to consider the distinction between the faithful remnant of Israel and unfaithful Israel. Paul’s statement, "Not all Israel are of Israel" (Romans 9:6), highlights this division. In Revelation, this theme continues with the portrayal of faithful believers versus those who have turned away.

To sum up, while there are various interpretations, my view aligns with seeing the woman in Revelation 12 as representing Israel (based on the direct reference to Joseph’s dreams), the faithful remnant, or the early Christian community. The harlot in Revelation 17 could then symbolize Jerusalem in its state of apostasy, drawing from Old Testament references to Jerusalem as a harlot (Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; Ezekiel 16:1-43).

Your insights into the historical and symbolic aspects of Rome and its influence are valuable. I appreciate the dialogue and the opportunity to explore these profound texts together. Let’s keep discussing and see where our interpretations converge or diverge!

Thanks for your thoughtful response!

Indeed, John refers to the harlot as the “mother of harlots and abominations of the earth” (Revelation 17:5). While Jerusalem is likened to a harlot, this does not necessarily mean she is the ultimate “mother” or source of all harlotry. Your argument about Babylon, starting with Nimrod’s Tower of Babel, being the original source of such corruption is compelling, given its foundational role in introducing idolatrous practices that spread to other nations, including Jerusalem.

However, the imagery and context within Revelation still support the interpretation of Jerusalem as a key player in the narrative. Jerusalem’s history of spiritual unfaithfulness and its central role in the biblical narrative make it a significant symbol of apostasy.

Your point about the Protestant Reformation and the historical consequences of Rome’s religious and political power is valid. The middle ages indeed saw severe consequences for dissenters, highlighting the far-reaching impact of religious systems.

One thing I haven’t pointed out yet is the woman mentioned earlier in Revelation 12, often interpreted as representing Jerusalem, seems to be associated with events of the first century, particularly leading up to the birth of Jesus and the persecution of the early Christian church. This chapter appears to be covering the time period you are focusing on.

The transition from this vision of the woman to the vision of the harlot and the beast implies a shift in time or focus within the narrative. If the woman representing Jerusalem is primarily associated with first-century events, then the introduction of the harlot and the beast most likely signifies a later period or a broader scope of events beyond the first century. This transition aligns with a later date of composition, as proponents of a later date argue that Revelation reflects developments and challenges facing the Christian community in the late first century, such as the persecution under Emperor Domitian.

So, the first woman mentioned in Revelation clearly represents Jerusalem/Israel, given the imagery of the sun, moon, and stars (Revelation 12:1), which aligns with Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37:9-11. This strongly suggests that the second woman, the harlot, is also likely Jerusalem, especially considering the textual evidence. John explicitly identifies the harlot as “the great city” (Revelation 17:18), which he earlier defined as Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8). This identification is further supported by the Old Testament references to Jerusalem’s unfaithfulness (Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20, 3:1-11; Ezekiel 16:1-43)..

Regarding the dating of the Book of Revelation, I believe it is crucial because it frames our understanding of the text’s purpose and fulfillment. Knowing whether it was written before or after 70 A.D. helps determine if the prophecies were meant for the first-century events or for future occurrences.

While it’s true that John did not include a specific date, the context and historical references within the book offer clues. Scholars use these to argue for either an early or late date. This discussion on the dating is foundational, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on the arguments for both early and late dating to see how it shapes our interpretations of Revelation.

Sorry for taking so long with my response! I’m going to briefly address your main points, then bring up something I think we should have discussed before this engaging exchange:

1. Mother of Harlots:

   • You argue that Babylon, being the "mother of harlots," is the source of harlotry that Jerusalem later adopted. This interpretation is valid, but it does not exclude Jerusalem from being identified as a harlot in Revelation 17. The term "mother of harlots" can indicate that Babylon was the original source of idolatry, but it doesn't negate Jerusalem's role in perpetuating these practices and being judged for them in Revelation.

2. Essence of Babylon:

   • It is true that Babylon symbolizes a mixture of customs and religious practices that were against God's ways. However, the Bible explicitly portrays Jerusalem as having adopted these practices and being judged for them. For instance, Ezekiel 16 and 23 describe Jerusalem’s extensive involvement in idolatry and foreign alliances, likening her to a harlot.

3. Compulsory Worship of Political/Religious Leaders:

   • While Rome and Babylon are associated with the worship of political leaders, Jerusalem's history also includes elements of political and religious syncretism. The Jewish leadership's complicity with Roman authorities during the time of Jesus and the early church reflects this.

4. Origin of Political and Religious Power:

   • I’ll acknowledge your argument that Babylon was the first organized political and religious power and that Jerusalem adopted its ways. However, Revelation 17's focus is on the current state of corruption and apostasy, which Jerusalem exemplified in the first century through its rejection of the Messiah and persecution of Christians.

5. Jerusalem's Relative Greatness:

   • The greatness of Jerusalem in Revelation is not necessarily about its political or military power but its spiritual significance. Jerusalem was the center of God's covenant people and worship, making its apostasy particularly grievous. The term "great city" can thus refer to its importance in the divine narrative, not its political clout.

6. Papacy and Rome's Historical Influence:

   • While Rome and the Papacy have had significant influence over centuries, Revelation's focus on Jerusalem as the harlot pertains to its first-century context and spiritual infidelity. The text can apply the harlot imagery to multiple entities representing apostasy, including Rome, but Jerusalem is clearly in view given its role in biblical prophecy and history.

7. Scriptural Support:

   • The Old Testament passages (Isaiah 1:21, Hosea 9:1, Jeremiah 3:3, Jeremiah 2:20, Jeremiah 3:1-11) explicitly depict Jerusalem as an unfaithful wife or harlot. These descriptions align with the portrayal of the harlot in Revelation and support the identification of Jerusalem as the harlot judged in the book.

Given the significance of Jerusalem's role in biblical prophecy and its depiction in Revelation, it's important to consider when Revelation was written. The dating of Revelation is crucial because it affects the interpretation of its prophecies.

• Early Date (Pre-70 A.D.):

  • If Revelation was written before 70 A.D., it likely addresses events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. This view aligns with your (preterist) interpretation, which sees Revelation as largely fulfilled in the first century.

• Late Date (Post-70 A.D.):

  • If Revelation was written after 70 A.D., it might focus on future events beyond the first century, including the eventual fall of Rome and eschatological events. This view supports a futurist interpretation, which sees many of Revelation's prophecies as still awaiting fulfillment.

Best Arguments for an Early Date:

• Internal evidence suggesting the Temple was still standing (Revelation 11:1-2).
• The persecution mentioned aligns with Nero's reign (54-68 A.D.).
• Some early Christian writers, such as Irenaeus, suggested an early date.

Best Arguments for a Later Date:

• Persecution under Domitian (81-96 A.D.) fits the context of Revelation's themes.
• Literary and historical context suggests a response to late first-century developments.
• Earliest extant manuscripts and patristic testimony lean towards a late date.

Before we delve further into specific passages in Revelation, I believe it's crucial to discuss the dating of the book first. The timing of its writing is fundamental because it shapes how we interpret its purpose and fulfillment.

Would you agree?

Winn! Yes, we need to finish our discussion. I apologize for not responding (I think it was my turn). I’m not sure why I let the water cool. I may have some time this weekend to pick up where we left off. 👌

I appreciate your passion for positive change and your skepticism towards superstitions. It's important to strive for peace, unity, kindness, and economic prosperity. However, my perspective is rooted in biblical teachings that caution us to be discerning, especially in times of great change.

The Bible warns that Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). This means that what appears to be good and benevolent can sometimes be a tool for ultimate evil. The deception we are warned about is not the blatant evil we see being exposed but rather the subtle, seemingly positive movements that can lead people astray.

It's not about rejecting all good things out of fear but about being cautious and discerning. We must ensure that the positive changes we embrace are genuinely rooted in truth and righteousness, not merely a facade that hides a darker agenda. This level of discernment is crucial, especially when considering the potential for even the elect to be deceived (Matthew 24:24).

Our goal should be to balance hope for positive change with the wisdom to recognize true good from deceptive appearances. It’s not about rejecting good things but ensuring that these good things are indeed aligned with God's will and not a part of a larger deception.

"No thanks. THAT superstitious ideology is the one that is of darkness and negativity to the world. May it die on the vine before more gullible minds get poisoned by it."

Jesus warned about a time when people would persecute believers, thinking they are doing a service to God (John 16:2). The mentality of seeing those who question or resist a new world order as negative or obstructive could easily lead to this kind of persecution. Believers who see through the deception and refuse to partake may indeed be seen as "standing in the way" of what many perceive as a positive change, fulfilling the prophecy that even the elect could be deceived (Matthew 24:24).

peace and unbelievable happiness, wealth and prosperity in the years to come. Have no fear my friends!

Sounds like a good introduction to the counterfeit kingdom of the Antichrist.

The false light kingdom set up by the Antichrist will appear to be a "good" thing to many. This deception is a significant aspect of its nature:

1. Promise of Peace and Security: The Antichrist will likely present himself as a peacemaker, offering solutions to global conflicts and promising stability (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

2. Economic Prosperity: The kingdom may bring about temporary economic prosperity, enticing people with material wealth and security (Revelation 13:16-17).

3. Charitable and Humanitarian Efforts: There might be initiatives that appear to support humanitarian causes, making the regime seem benevolent and caring.

4. Unity and Inclusivity: The Antichrist will promote a sense of global unity and inclusivity, appealing to the desire for harmony among diverse groups (Revelation 13:7-8).

5. Miraculous Signs: The display of signs and wonders will convince many that the Antichrist has divine approval or supernatural power (2 Thessalonians 2:9; Revelation 13:13-14).

The sheer malevolence exhibited by proponents of the so-called "Jew World Order" is so blatant that it hardly requires any discernment to recognize their evil. Thus, the New World Order (NWO) cannot be the great deception that Jesus spoke of in Matthew, which could potentially deceive even the elect.

Instead, the true deception will come from the power that rises to defeat the NWO. This force will be perceived as a beacon of goodness and righteousness. It will present itself as the savior of humanity, uniting people worldwide to rise against the apparent evils of the NWO. This is where discernment becomes crucial.

Many will be swayed by this seemingly benevolent power, mistaking it for the ultimate force of good. However, this entity will be the very deception prophesied, luring humanity into a false sense of salvation and unity.

The NWO itself is a spiritual false flag, a designed distraction to unite us all. We are all familiar with political false flags, but we often lose sight of the fact that Satan is setting up a worldwide spiritual false flag. This false flag is designed to lure the world into uniting under the umbrella of revenge, wanting to rid the world of the evil that has enslaved us.

As nations rally together, believing they are combating the ultimate evil, they will fulfill the prophecies in Zechariah 14. These prophecies speak of the nations rising against Jerusalem, not just as a city but as a representation of the perceived crimes against humanity and corruption. This global uprising will be seen as a just cause, but it will ultimately play into the larger, deceptive plan orchestrated by the Antichrist.

In summary, the NWO's overt evil will be obvious, but the real test of discernment will be identifying the false light that defeats it. This false light will unite humanity in a deceptive cause, fulfilling ancient prophecies and setting the stage for the ultimate end-times events.

Revelation 17.

The Harlot (Jerusalem) rides (controls) the Beast (Kings of the Earth/Nations). Then, in the middle of chapter 17, the Beast turns on the Harlot and destroys her.

A 15th dimensioner would say that

Self empowerment is Gnostic garbage.

Excellent job pointing this out.

Unfortunately, the Great Awakening is steeped in Gnostic philosophy/theology.

The "red pill" is literally the fruit of temptation in the garden that Satan used to deceive Eve, starting one down a path of "self realization" or "awakening," which, ultimately, leads one to realize their inner Godhood (you will be like God). It worked in the Garden and it's working now. Same ol tricks of Satan. Except this time, it's Global.

Very interesting times we live in, my fren....

If we allow the Bible to interpret itself, we find a strong textual argument for the harlot being Jerusalem. Let’s first take a look at how Israel is depicted in the Old Testament.

In the Old Testament, Jerusalem is metaphorically depicted as an unfaithful or adulterous woman due to its spiritual infidelity. These passages illustrate this imagery:

1. Isaiah 1:21: "How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers."

2. Hosea 9:1: "Do not rejoice, Israel; do not be jubilant like the other nations. For you have been unfaithful to your God; you love the wages of a prostitute at every threshing floor."

3. Jeremiah 3:3: "Therefore the showers have been withheld, and the spring rain has not come; yet you have the forehead of a whore; you refuse to be ashamed."

4. Jeremiah 2:20: "Long ago you broke off your yoke and tore off your bonds; you said, ‘I will not serve you!’ Indeed, on every high hill and under every spreading tree you lay down as a prostitute."

5. Jeremiah 3:1-11: This passage depicts God's relationship with Israel as a marriage covenant, with Israel depicted as an unfaithful wife who has turned to other gods and nations for security and provision. The imagery includes descriptions of adultery and prostitution to convey Israel's spiritual unfaithfulness.

These passages use strong imagery to convey the idea of Jerusalem's unfaithfulness and apostasy, aligning with the depiction of the Harlot in Revelation 17 as symbolic of Jerusalem's corruption and unfaithfulness.

Now, let’s take a look at how the apostle John (the author of revelation) defines who the harlot is.

Great City = Harlot = Jerusalem: In Revelation 17:18, the angel explicitly states that the "woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth." This identification links the Harlot with the "great city," which earlier in Revelation is identified as Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8).

You really can’t get any clearer than that.

This interpretation of Jerusalem, being the harlot, who rides/controls the beast (the kings and nations of the Earth) lines up precisely with what we are seeing in the great awakening. People are awakening to the fact that the New World order is a Jewish led World order.

You’ll notice, however, that the beast she rides eventually turns on her and devours her or destroys her in a single day. I believe we are in the midst of this “turning“ currently. The turning equals the “great awakening.“

This all points to the fact that what we’ve been calling the “New World order” or “the beast“ is really the harlot system led by the Jews. The beast, however, is what ultimately destroys the harlot system (middle of revelation 17) and ushers in the reign of the antichrist.

Calling the harlot system the beast system is, I think, part of the great deception that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24 that will deceive even the elect if that were possible.

I may have gone a little too far in my description here, but I think I’ve answered your original question about how the harlot equals Jerusalem in revelation 17 and 18. We can talk a little bit more about the implications of this interpretation if you’d like

Also again are we at least in agreement with the numbers in the graphic from the prior comment?

I think we can agree on the numbers, which is pretty simple math, but where we diverge is whether there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week, yes?

Thank you for the detailed list of influential scholars on both ends of the spectrum.

We may have to take a step back and address the underlying assumption that appears to be driving your views on eschatology (or avoiding some specific views of eschatology), namely, the assumption that the Jesuits are behind some conspiratorial distraction to keep us confused as to end time events, or at least who the Harlot is in Revelation.

I am convinced 100% that the Harlot in Revelation is not the RCC, but Jerusalem - and I can show this solely from the biblical text without making any prior assumptions.

I found a graphic which quite easily portrays the timeline (this was not an easy find!): https://files.catbox.moe/i8ite8.jpeg

Yes, this is the classic Preterist interpretation of Daniels 70th week prophecy.

Let's try a different angle and see what we can find from other scriptural references regarding the Antichrist and his actions as they pertain to stopping sacrifices and the Abomination of Desolation (AoD). This may shed some light on why the "he" in Dan 9:27 most likely refers to the AC, not Jesus, thus confirming a gap (commonly referred to the Church Age or the Times of the Gentiles [see Luke 21:24]) of an unspecified period of time between the 69th and 70th week.

1. "He will confirm a covenant": The identity of the one who confirms the covenant is not explicitly stated in Daniel 9:27. Some argue, as you do, that it refers to the Messiah (Jesus) based on interpretations that the "covenant" refers to the new covenant in Christ's blood (Luke 22:20). However, this is not directly stated in Daniel 9:27.

2. "In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering": The phrase "middle of the 'seven'" implies a period of time, possibly three and a half years into a seven-year period. This event is often associated with the actions of the Antichrist. However, the direct connection between this event and the Antichrist is not explicitly stated in Daniel 9:27 but is inferred based on other passages in the Bible that describe the actions of the Antichrist

Daniel 7:25: He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Daniel 11:31: His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4: Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

When considering the verses above mentioning this "man" it becomes clearer that these are the actions of the Antichrist and not Jesus. If not Jesus, then there must be a gap between the 69th and 70th week. And that means we are currently in this gap - albeit nearing the end of this period quickly.

Dont feel alone in your searches through ancient prophecies trying to understand the times. You are in some good company, for even the OT prophets searched these predictions trying to figure out when they would occur:

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

~ 1 Peter 1:10-12

I think this is a comm of some sort. Wonder what damning information is being released this weekend?

Yeah, makes me wonder what damning information is going to be released this weekend?

I don't believe there is a gap in the 70 weeks.

I appreciate your willingness to engage with these complex topics. Forgive me for the long reply here, but these subjects require a little more explanation than normal.

Regarding the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel, while you maintain there is no gap, the text itself may provide evidence for a gap between the 69th and 70th week.

In Daniel 9:27, the prophecy states, "And he will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven,' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

This prophecy aligns with other passages that speak of the "abomination of desolation," a key event in end-times prophecy. Jesus Himself referred to this event in Matthew 24:15-21, linking it to a future time of great tribulation: "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains... For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."

The apostle Paul also references the "abomination of desolation" in his letters, specifically in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, where he speaks of a future event:

"Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

That passage aligns with the concept of the abomination of desolation, where a figure of great evil (the Antichrist) will desecrate the temple in Jerusalem during a future period of tribulation.

Paul's mention of this event as something yet to come, along with similar passages in the New Testament, supports the idea that certain aspects of end-times prophecy, such as the 70th week of Daniel and the abomination of desolation, are still awaiting fulfillment. This reinforces the futurist interpretation of these prophecies, suggesting that they will be fulfilled in a future period of tribulation preceding Christ's return.

The description of the great tribulation in Matthew 24 and other passages (such as Revelation 7:14) portrays a period of unprecedented suffering and turmoil that has not yet been fulfilled in history. This, of course, aligns with a futurist interpretation of end-times events, suggesting that the 70th week of Daniel, including the abomination of desolation, is yet to come.

Furthermore, the idea of a gap within a prophetic timeline is not unprecedented in biblical prophecy. For example, in Luke 4:16-21, Jesus reads from the scroll of Isaiah and stops mid-sentence, implying a gap in the fulfillment of that prophecy. He reads, "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor." He then stops before reading, "and the day of vengeance of our God." This "gap" suggests that the fulfillment of the latter part of this prophecy has a future aspect, which aligns with the concept of a gap in the 70 weeks prophecy.

One thing to keep in mind when discussing Hebrew prophecy is that the Church Age, which was not fully revealed to the Old Testament prophets, introduces the possibility of gaps in biblical prophecy. The concept of the Church Age as a mystery is a significant aspect of biblical theology. The apostle Paul, in Ephesians 3:4-6, describes this mystery as the inclusion of the Gentiles in God's redemptive plan through faith in Christ. He explains that this mystery was not made known to previous generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

This imagery can be likened to looking at two distant mountain peaks - one behind the other - without being able to see the valley between them. The Old Testament prophets, while they foresaw the coming of the Messiah and the establishment of God's kingdom, did not have a clear view of the Church Age—the period between Christ's first and second comings—where the Gentiles would be included as fellow heirs with the Jews in the body of Christ.

This hidden period, in which Gentiles are included in God's plan of salvation through faith in Christ, was gradually unveiled through the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. This theological insight suggests that there may be gaps or undisclosed periods in other prophecies, especially concerning the timing and nature of future events, awaiting fulfillment in God's sovereign timing.

Considering the above points, do you see the possibility that the 70th week of Daniel, including the abomination of desolation, is yet future and part of a future tribulation period?

"To me it seems all weeks are accounted for, with the final week being the 3.5 years to execution / resurrection and the stoning of Steven (end of Israel only, beginning of Gospel to all nations) followed by the next 3.5 years, whatever happened then. I don't understand why this last week magically disappears and lasts for undetermined amount of time when all the others had a set time."

The interpretation you've presented suggests that the entire 70th week of Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled in the events surrounding the stoning of Stephen and the subsequent spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles. However, there are several reasons why this view faces challenges in aligning with the biblical text:

1. Duration of the 70th Week: The prophecy in Daniel 9:27 indicates that the 70th week would be a seven-year period (one 'seven' in biblical language often denotes a week of years, i.e., seven years). The idea that the 70th week was split into two parts with a gap between them, as you suggest, is not explicitly supported by the text.

2. Specific Events in the 70th Week: The events described in Daniel 9:27 for the 70th week, such as the confirming of a covenant and the setting up of the abomination of desolation, are typically understood in a future eschatological context and have not been historically fulfilled in the manner you describe.

3. Jesus' Ministry and the 70th Week: Your view suggests that the ministry of Jesus and the subsequent events, including the stoning of Stephen, encompassed the entire 70th week. However, this timeline does not align with the chronology presented in the Gospels or the book of Acts.

4. Continuity of the Prophecy: The prophecy in Daniel 9 concerning the 70 weeks is presented as a continuous timeline leading up to the Messiah. Interpreting the 70th week as having been partially fulfilled in the past and then halted for an extended period of time raises questions about the continuity and coherence of the prophecy.

In light of these considerations, it seems that the interpretation you've offered, while seeking to make sense of the timeline of events, may not fully align with the details and structure of the 70 weeks prophecy as presented in Daniel 9.

edit- forgot to reply to the OT heavenly bodies language parts... what came to me on this is that these references probably had meanings already assigned to them which were only known by the faithful remnant of Israel and these were shown to John and so he wrote Revelation with them, and of course Christ knew, and also used them. I bet they all reference the same things, all the way through, and I don't think they mean the actual stars, sun, or moon. I bet God can be quite cheeky and clever if He wants to keep something hidden, even using something with parallel earthly phenomena such as solar and lunar eclipses to veil coded language with, sort of like a double-veil.

The concept of cosmic language in apocalyptic literature referring to times of great judgment is not unique to the Bible but is a common feature in ancient Near Eastern and Jewish apocalyptic texts. For example, in the Book of Enoch, similar cosmic imagery is used to depict eschatological events. The darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of stars, are used symbolically to signify the collapse of earthly powers and the arrival of divine judgment.

Moreover, in the broader context of ancient Near Eastern literature, cosmic phenomena were often seen as omens or signs of significant events, including divine intervention or the overthrow of rulers. These cosmic signs were believed to herald a time of great change or upheaval in the world.

Therefore, interpreting the cosmic language in Revelation and other apocalyptic texts as having a hidden or secret meaning beyond their symbolic value as indicators of divine judgment is not necessary. The use of such imagery is a literary device employed to convey the dramatic and transformative nature of the events described in these texts, rather than indicating a hidden code or esoteric meaning.

I know I've said a lot here. Much to ruminate on. No need to rush on a response. I do enjoy, however, this exchange and the respectful manner in which you’re engaging. It's refreshing!

Thank you for your detailed response! I’d like to point out a few points of agreement:

1.Historical Empires: Your outline of the historical empires aligns with mainstream historical and biblical scholarship.

2.Daniel’s Fourth Beast: Your identification of the fourth beast as the Roman Empire and its continuity in Western Europe is consistent with classical dispensationalism.

3.Daniel’s 70 Weeks: Your interpretation of Daniel’s 70 weeks aligns with the belief that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy through His ministry and sacrifice.

4.Matthew 24 Interpretation: Your view that the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is in line with a Preterist understanding.

5.Symbolism in Revelation: Your symbolic interpretation of Revelation’s imagery corresponds to a common approach to understanding apocalyptic literature.

While we find agreement on these points, it’s intriguing to observe that your views actually incorporate elements of both Preterism and Dispensationalism, concepts you suggest were invented by Jesuits to distract from Rome.

Additionally, the cosmic apocalyptic imagery in Revelation, such as the darkening of the sun and the falling stars, bears a striking resemblance to the prophetic language used by Amos and other OT prophets as well as mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, suggesting a dual fulfillment—one in the contemporary context and another in the future return of Christ.

1. Revelation:

   • Revelation 6:12-14: "I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place."

   • Revelation 8:12: "The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night."

2. Amos:

   • Amos 5:18-20: "Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord! Why do you long for the day of the Lord? That day will be darkness, not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear, as though he entered his house and rested his hand on the wall only to have a snake bite him. Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light—pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?"

3. Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24):

   • Matthew 24:29: "Immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'"

(Here are some other OT references using the exact same wording:

1. Isaiah 13:10: "The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light."

2. Isaiah 24:23: "The moon will be dismayed, the sun ashamed; for the LORD Almighty will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before its elders—with great glory."

3. Isaiah 34:4: "All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree."

4. Ezekiel 32:7-8: "When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you)

It's also worth noting that the apostle John, the author of Revelation, often draws his imagery from the Jewish Old Testament. The Old Testament serves as a key that unlocks the meaning of many symbols and visions in Revelation

Given this context, what are your thoughts on the gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy? Do you see scriptural support for the idea that we are currently in that gap, and that the 70th week will be fulfilled during the time of Jacob’s trouble or the great tribulation?

Thank you for answering. Helps me understand a little better where you're coming from, and I agree with most of what you say.

I didn't say they were all fulfilled, I was mainly thinking of Daniel's 70 weeks and the Olivet Discourse.

Could you expand on your interpretation of these prophecies and explain why you believe they have already been fulfilled?

Are you aware of the concept of dual fulfillment in Hebrew prophecy, where a prophecy may have an immediate fulfillment in the historical context it was given, as well as a future fulfillment?

I remember standing in my bank, looking at the floor which was riddled with stickers that said:

"Stand together by standing apart."

In the meantime, since you won’t give me an indication what eschatological camp you landed in, I’ll have to ask some clarifying questions to get a better feel for where you’re coming from;

1. How do you explain the ongoing existence of evil and suffering if all biblical prophecies were fulfilled in the past?

2. Why do we still see the growth of Christianity if all biblical prophecies, including about the Kingdom of God, were fulfilled in the first century?

3. How do you interpret passages that seem to describe a future judgment and resurrection of the dead?

4. Why has the expectation of Christ’s return persisted throughout history if all prophecy was fulfilled in the past?

5. How do you explain the unrealized events described in Revelation, such as the defeat of evil and the establishment of a new heaven and earth?

6. Do you think this view diminishes the hope and urgency of the Christian message regarding Christ’s return and the final redemption of creation?

Just to give you a heads up: After 2000 years of church history, it’s highly unlikely you’ve landed in some nuanced, “new” eschatological framework.

[EDIT]

It’s important I clarify that no single end-times framework can perfectly accommodate every passage about the end times. However, some frameworks align more accurately with the overall biblical narrative than others.

Okay, then… I’ll just put you under the “unlabeled” label. 😆

Maybe I’ll give you what you’re asking for a little later, when I get enough time needed to dive in with ya.

You switched to some from of Preterism and it all made sense?

So much preterist oversimplification in this comment it hurts.

Oh, look! The Thule Society never died!

Just rebranded...

Probably cause the people filming are also Feds and part of the show. 🤷‍♂️