LOL, lovely discussion, pedes, and I'm hesitant to add into this, but I will anyway.

a) We ARE in the end times. We are currently witnessing/participating in Armageddon. b) What if the description of Christ's return is ... symbolic? What if we really don't understand what it means? What if, when Christ returns, or has returned, but we simply are unaware? "Every eye shall see him". Is this literal, or metaphorical? have you perhaps already seen Christ, but simply did not recognize him? The disciples on the road did not recognize Jesus when they saw him, until it was revealed to them by Christ himself. c) Why are we still ignorant of why Christ returns, the manner in which he returns, when he returns, and the process he will undertake after he returns? Because we are still relying on those revelations granted close to 2000 years ago. And John's level of understanding, and his vision, WAS limited. Why does Paul prophecy that NOW we see dimly, but THEN, we will understand FULLY, even as we are known? Because, WHEN Christ returns, he will finally unveil the final pieces of the puzzle. He will complete our understanding, by revealing all the unresolved questions raised by the Old and New testaments.

Example: WHY was Noah's flood 40 days, and Moses fast 40 days, and Jesus fast 40 days, and the slavery in Egypt 400 years, and the march through the desert 40 years, with another 40 years after faithlessness at Rephidim?

What is the significance of this 4-based period? Why? How come its such an obvious KEY element of the processes that so many key providential figures underwent, yet we are basically completely ignorant of WHY? What principles are at work here?

Jesus told his disciples directly "I have MANY things to tell you but you cannot bear them now." What were those things? Why couldn't they bear them? When WILL we find out? "When the spirit of truth comes...."

People assume this is the Holy Spirit. But after 2000 years of Holy Spirit experiences, we STILL do not know.

What if, when Christ returns, he will come in an unexpected manner, like Jesus did at the first coming? Who recognized him? (only a very small number)

d) What is the rapture? Look up "cloud of witnesses" and "Rev. 17:15. In some scriptural symbolism, water = the people. What is a cloud? It is purified water.

Does the word "rapture" actually exist in the scripture? (No, not except in the normal sense, certainly not in the sense of rising to the sky). Rapture is a word that was coined to express a certain interpretation of scripture that made sense to people IN THE PAST. But why? "He is coming with the clouds" also 'believers raised to the sky'. What if this is merely symbolic, used because those, in that day, were NOT READY to bear the direct real truth?

If waters = people, then purified water (aka clouds) = purified and sanctified people. What if, when Christ comes, he is born as a man, on earth, with a new name, unrecognizable (Rev 2:17 "I will also give him a white stone inscribed with a new name, known only to the one who receives it.), and, raising believers, sanctifies and purifies them (raising them to 'Heaven'), such that they become the "Cloud"?

One final thing. Ask yourself, why was Elijah prophesied to return to Israel before the days of Christ? Did he? What does Jesus say? Who did Jesus say fulfilled this second coming of Elijah. It's in the scripture, if you look.

So what does the return or second coming mean? How does it take place? What is the process? In what manner?

We have not been able to understand these things until now, because it was not time. But we indeed are in the last days, and the prophecy of the Revelation is at hand. What we do will determine exactly how God's will is fulfilled. We have that choice, Each one of us.

My view: the war of armageddon is underway because Christ already HAS returned, and even though so many of us saw him, we did not know him. But he has been victorious, he has completed the final stages of his mission, and the very foundations of the Satanic world are now exposed, and finally, after thousands of years, can be brought down by the faithful fully uniting with God and Christ.

Addendum: "every eye shall see him" but "he shall come as a thief in the night". Reconcile. How would this be possible?

LOL, lovely discussion, pedes, and I'm hesitant to add into this, but I will anyway.

a) We ARE in the end times. We are currently witnessing/participating in Armageddon. b) What if the description of Christ's return is ... symbolic? What if we really don't understand what it means? What if, when Christ returns, or has returned, but we simply are unaware? "Every eye shall see him". Is this literal, or metaphorical? have you perhaps already seen Christ, but simply did not recognize him? The disciples on the road did not recognize Jesus when they saw him, until it was revealed to them by Christ himself. c) Why are we still ignorant of why Christ returns, the manner in which he returns, when he returns, and the process he will undertake after he returns? Because we are still relying on those revelations granted close to 2000 years ago. And John's level of understanding, and his vision, WAS limited. Why does Paul prophecy that NOW we see dimly, but THEN, we will understand FULLY, even as we are known? Because, WHEN Christ returns, he will finally unveil the final pieces of the puzzle. He will complete our understanding, by revealing all the unresolved questions raised by the Old and New testaments.

Example: WHY was Noah's flood 40 days, and Moses fast 40 days, and Jesus fast 40 days, and the slavery in Egypt 400 years, and the march through the desert 40 years, with another 40 years after faithlessness at Rephidim?

What is the significance of this 4-based period? Why? How come its such an obvious KEY element of the processes that so many key providential figures underwent, yet we are basically completely ignorant of WHY? What principles are at work here?

Jesus told his disciples directly "I have MANY things to tell you but you cannot bear them now." What were those things? Why couldn't they bear them? When WILL we find out? "When the spirit of truth comes...."

People assume this is the Holy Spirit. But after 2000 years of Holy Spirit experiences, we STILL do not know.

What if, when Christ returns, he will come in an unexpected manner, like Jesus did at the first coming? Who recognized him? (only a very small number)

d) What is the rapture? Look up "cloud of witnesses" and "Rev. 17:15. In some scriptural symbolism, water = the people. What is a cloud? It is purified water.

Does the word "rapture" actually exist in the scripture? (No, not except in the normal sense, certainly not in the sense of rising to the sky). Rapture is a word that was coined to express a certain interpretation of scripture that made sense to people IN THE PAST. But why? "He is coming with the clouds" also 'believers raised to the sky'. What if this is merely symbolic, used because those, in that day, were NOT READY to bear the direct real truth?

If waters = people, then purified water (aka clouds) = purified and sanctified people. What if, when Christ comes, he is born as a man, on earth, with a new name, unrecognizable (Rev 2:17 "I will also give him a white stone inscribed with a new name, known only to the one who receives it.), and, raising believers, sanctifies and purifies them (raising them to 'Heaven'), such that they become the "Cloud"?

One final thing. Ask yourself, why was Elijah prophesied to return to Israel before the days of Christ? Did he? What does Jesus say? Who did Jesus say fulfilled this second coming of Elijah. It's in the scripture, if you look.

So what does the return or second coming mean? How does it take place? What is the process? In what manner?

We have not been able to understand these things until now, because it was not time. But we indeed are in the last days, and the prophecy of the Revelation is at hand. What we do will determine exactly how God's will is fulfilled. We have that choice, Each one of us.

My view: the war of armageddon is underway because Christ already HAS returned, and even though so many of us saw him, we did not know him. But he has been victorious, he has completed the final stages of his mission, and the very foundations of the Satanic world are now exposed, and finally, after thousands of years, can be brought down by the faithful fully uniting with God and Christ.