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Reason: None provided.

Hmmmm. That's a tough one. I don't really know of any off hand. Not easily accessible ones.

Also, it's possible that my choice of wording there was not as accurate or clear as it might be. However, on that particular topic, the best starting point is scripture itself, imo. (key sections here, but reading in the large context recommended for added sense)

Romans 7:23-25

But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.…

Comment: Paul expresses the conflict between the spirit/mind, which through salvation is now object to God's influence while the body remains/is not.

Romans 8:22-23

We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Paul states clearly that despite having the FIRST fruits of the spirit, he (we) are waiting for the redemption of our bodies. Thus, the spirit has been 'saved' but the body, not yet.

It's notable that the process he describes as fulfilling the completion of 'saving the body' as being adopted as sons. What is adoption except being formally brought from one lineage and family into a different lineage and family. In many cultures, historically, adoption was conducted when there was no heir to the lineage, and the adopted son becomes the actual heir to the lineage in question.

Let's take another angle in addition, aka reason and logic, to augment our scriptural reading. We can understand that Jesus' body was crucified, and that following the death of his body, there was a 3-day process wherein Jesus fought and gained the victory spiritually. (On the third day he rose.)

Love is the source of both spirit and flesh. It is the core nature of the Creator and the universe. All things were created to be a manifestation of love. Thus, love, being the source of spirit and flesh, transcends spirit and flesh. Jesus, winning the victory of love, became able to transcend the barriers between spirit and flesh. As such, he was now able to appear fully to the disciples as the resurrected Jesus, tangible even to their touch.

However, if one considers what was required for God to bring Jesus to the earth - the process of preparing the foundation inside and outside the womb so that God could claim the womb and give birth to a son who, unlike all the descendents of Adam, had a flesh that was never of the fallen lineage - (that process is recorded in scripture even though it is not apparent to the casual reader) - then it was a tragedy that the Father had to sacrifice the Son's flesh in order to pay the price for the faithlessness of humanity, in the form of the faithlessness of the chosen ones, Israel.

Samuel 15:22

And Samuel said, “Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

(Israel failed to offer obedience, and as a result, a sacrifice was required.)

Thus, the crucified Jesus no longer had any permanent presence in the material world. The material presence being then prophesied as the return, the second coming.

From that view, the disciples, and us, believers, are in a situation where our flesh is NOT redeemed yet, even though our spirit is thru salvation of the cross. If our flesh is not yet redeemed, who 'owns' it? Who holds the receipts? The title?

That's the devil. That is exactly why, even though Jesus was born and accomplished spiritual salvation 2000 years ago, to this day, evil has STILL ruled this material world.

Perhaps "resulted in a split" is over-simplistic, or maybe not. Prior to Jesus coming, "the title" to both spirit and flesh belonged to the devil. The only thing keeping the devil at bay was the laws of Moses. As long as the israelites adhered to that law, to that condition God gave them, they remained as the "chosen people" and belonged to God, even if their individual spirit and flesh were still the devil's property. (When they rejected Jesus, that protection was smashed.)

Through salvation of the cross, Jesus opened the way for our spirits to be redeemed through (our) faith, but the flesh, still not.

A final, reflective note: we can understand through the Q drops that the plan is not a fixed, rigid linear timeline, but rather, is responsive to developments, to wins and losses, all the while working inexorably towards the same, ultimate conclusion.

What if providential history is the same? What if, instead of being a completely rigid timeline that God has set and is unaffected by anything, God's unfolding providence is in fact a responsive PLAN, one that proceeds or unfolds in response to required developments on the side of humanity, while inexorably working towards the same, ultimate destination: complete salvation and the establishment of God's kingdom in both spirit and flesh, on earth and in heaven (everywhere)? Worth thinking about.

What if, instead of us being non-factors in the unfolding of God's work, God is actually waiting for us to accomplish or fulfill certain things before he can unroll the next stage? Hmmmm.

1 year ago
1 score
Reason: Original

Hmmmm. That's a tough one.

It's possible that my choice of wording there was not as accurate or clear as it might be. However, on that particular topic, the best starting point is scripture itself, imo. (key sections here, but reading in the large context recommended for added sense)

Romans 7:23-25

But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.…

Comment: Paul expresses the conflict between the spirit/mind, which through salvation is now object to God's influence while the body remains/is not.

Romans 8:22-23

We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Paul states clearly that despite having the FIRST fruits of the spirit, we are waiting for the redemption of our bodies. Thus, the spirit has been 'saved' but the body, not yet.

It's notable that the process he describes as fulfilling the completion of 'saving the body' as being adopted as sons. What is adoption except being formally brought from one lineage and family into a different lineage and family. In many cultures, historically, adoption was conducted when there was no heir to the lineage, and the adopted son becomes the actual heir to the lineage in question.

Applying reason and logic, we can understand that Jesus' body was crucified, and that following the death of his body, there was a 3-day process wherein Jesus fought and gained the victory spiritually. (On the third day he rose.)

Love is the source of both spirit and flesh. It is the core nature of the Creator and the universe. All things were created to be a manifestation of love. Thus, love, being the source of spirit and flesh, transcends spirit and flesh. Jesus, winning the victory of love, became able to transcend the barriers between spirit and flesh. As such, he was now able to appear fully to the disciples as the resurrected Jesus, tangible even to their touch.

However, if one considers what was required for God to bring Jesus to the earth - the process of preparing the foundation inside and outside the womb so that God could claim the womb and give birth to a son who, unlike all the descendents of Adam, had a flesh that was never of the fallen lineage - that process is recorded in scripture even though it is not apparent to the casual reader - then it was a tragedy that the Father had to sacrifice the son's flesh in order to pay the price for spiritual salvation.

Thus, the crucified Jesus no longer had any permanent presence in the material world. The material presence being prophesied as the return, the second coming.

From that view, the disciples, and us, believers, are in a situation where our flesh is NOT redeemed yet, even though our spirit is thru salvation of the cross. If our flesh is not yet redeemed, who 'owns' it? Who holds the receipts? The title?

That's the devil. That is exactly why, even though Jesus was born and accomplished spiritual salvation 2000 years ago, to this day, evil has STILL ruled this material world.

Perhaps "resulted in a split" is over-simplistic, or maybe not. Prior to Jesus coming, "the title" to both spirit and flesh belonged to the devil. The only thing keeping the devil at bay was the laws of Moses. As long as the israelites adhered to that law, to that condition God gave them, they remained as the "chosen people" and belonged to God, even if their individual spirit and flesh were still the devil's property.

Through salvation of the cross, Jesus opened the way for our spirits to be redeemed through (our) faith, but the flesh, still not.

A final note: we can understand through the Q drops that the plan is not a fixed, rigid linear timeline, but rather, is responsive to developments, to wins and losses, all the while working inexorably towards the same, ultimate conclusion.

What is providential history was the same? What if, instead of being a completely rigid timeline that God has set and is unaffected by anything, God's unfolding providence is in fact a responsive PLAN, one that proceeds or unfolds in response to required developments on the side of humanity, while inexorably working towards the same, ultimate destination: complete salvation and the establishment of God's kingdom in both spirit and flesh, on earth and in heaven (everywhere)? Worth thinking about.

What if, instead of us being non-factors in the unfolding of God's work, God is actually waiting for us to accomplish or fulfill certain things before he can unroll the next stage? Hmmmm.

1 year ago
1 score