I think we're going in circles a bit. Do we agree on the numbers in the graphic at least?
Daniel 7:23Thus he said, The fourth beast (Rome) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24And the ten horns (European nations) out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first (papacy, a "priest-king"), and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: (calander changes and twisting of God's word to fit their agenda) and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (1260 years beginning in 607AD ending 1867AD)
The simple fact is there is no institution on earth which has lasted long enough to fit 1260 years into except the RCC, neither has there been a more powerful institution, with tenticles in all nations on the planet (think "missions") where the elected leaders pay the Vatican a visit then go back home and do what they were told!
Also, speaking of "preterist" I have found the actual names of the Jesuits who concocted both ends of this deception as well as some prominent vectors of "futurist" propagation:
FUTURISM
Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty- four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the anti-christ, a single individual, would:
-
Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
-
Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
-
Abolish the Christian religion.
-
Deny Jesus Christ.
-
Be received by the Jews.
-
Pretend to be God.
-
Kill the two witnesses of God.
-
Conquer the world.
Another:
Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Disputationum Roberti Bellarmini De controversiis Christian fidei adversus hujus temporis haereticos, (Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time), in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of anti-christ into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years. (See Froom, Prophetic Faith, Vol. 2, pgs. 495 - 502).
Another:
A Treatise of Antichrist. Continuing the defence of Cardinall Bellarmines arguments, which inuincibly demonstrate, that the pope is not anti-christ. Against George Downam by Michael Christopherson priest ..., Volume 1 of 2 by the English Jesuit, Michael Walpole (1570-1624?), 1613 edition. Christopherson is a pseudonym for Walpole. The third chapter, titled "Wherein it is shewed, that anti-christ is not yet come", (pages 49-51) discusses the protestant (Lutheran) Matthias Flacius Illyricus (1520-1575) and his Catalogue of Witnesses to the Truth who before our day cried out against the Pope (Catalogus Testium Veritatis - Basel, 1556), his Magdeburg Centuries (Ecclesiastica Historia, 1559 - 1574), an ecclesiastical history of 13 volumes (1 volume per century) to 1298 A.D. which established from that history that the Bishop of Rome was the Antichrist, and a 1260 year spiritual reign of the papal anti-christ, proposed to be from 606 - 1866 A.D., with the Lord's judgment commencing in 1866! < this is very key to me as the USA severed all diplomatic relations with the Vatican due to their involvement in the Lincoln assassination in 1867!
Another:
Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesias en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"), under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben- Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the anti-christ was still off in the future. His manuscript was published in London, Spain, Mexico and Paris between 1811 and 1826.
More:
Margaret McDonald
Samuel Roffey Maitland
John Nelson Darby
Samuel Prideaux Tregelles
Cyrus Ingerson Scofield
PRETERISM
Proposed by the Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613), who wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. According to Alcazar (or Alcasar):
-
Revelation chapters 1-11 describes the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
-
Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church.
-
Revelation 20 describe the final persecutions by anti-christ, who is identified as Caesar Nero (54- 68 A.D.), and judgment.
-
Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church.
The intent of both Futurism and Preterism was to be diversionary, to counter or offset the correct interpretation, and present alternatives, no matter how implausible they might be. The result is evident: ANTICHRIST IS MOVED EITHER FORWARD OR BACKWARD IN TIME.
Ribera puts the anti-christ into a future 3.5 literal years while Alcazar identifies the anti-christ as Nero. Both of them put anti-christ outside the Middle Ages and the Reformation period, identified by the OG Protestants as anti-christ's reign of 1260 prophetic years. That these interpretations differed so greatly mattered little. Catholicism, the supposedly divine and infallible interpreter of scripture, was presenting two vastly different and quite incompatible interpretations of prophecy in a desperate effort to counter the claims of the Reformers.
These seminaries have wholly abandoned the biblical teaching that the Roman Catholic Church is the apostate church, the harlot of Revelation, with the anti-christ papacy at its head, and instead serve to screen the papal anti-christ power from being perceived by their students.
-
Dallas Theological Seminary (a nondenominational Protestant school): Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952), a student of Cyrus Scofield, founded Evangelical Theological College (now DTS) in 1924, which is likely the most influential seminary in the United States today. Futurism, and the secret rapture (which they call the blessed hope), are covered in articles 18-20 of the DTS Full Doctrinal Statement.
-
Moody Bible Institute of Chicago: In 1890, C. I. Scofield began a Comprehensive Bible Correspondence Course, later taken over about 1914 by the Moody Bible Institute (Dwight. L. Moody, founder of the Moody Church, had converted Scofield, and Scofield preached and presided at Moody's funeral in 1899)
-
Western Theological Seminary (Reformed Church in America). Alma Mater of Tim LaHaye, founder of the Pre-trib Research Center, co- author of the Left Behind series of books, by far the most popular series promoting Futurism and the secret rapture, which has sold 20 million copies. The film version of the first book in the series has been produced by prophecy authors Peter and Paul Lalonde of Cloud Ten Pictures. Released first on video cassette, and then in theaters in early 2001, people who have seen Left Behind say it is confusing, and lacks a Gospel presentation of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, making it of little (if any) evangelistic value, much like TBN's Omega Code and Megiddo (Omega Code II).
-
Tim LaHaye School of Prophecy - opens in January 2002 on the campus of Liberty University, Lynchburg, V.A., Dr. Jerry Falwell - Chancellor. Tim LaHaye says he was impressed by the prophecy conferences of Albury Park and Powerscourt held in Britain in the 1820's and 1830's and this led directly to his co-founding the Pre- trib Research Center. Edward Irving and J. N. Darby attended, and apparently greatly influenced, these 19th century British prophecy conferences where the secret rapture and futurism gained in acceptance among Protestant prophecy scholars.
I wish I could let you borrow my eyes for a bit to show you what I see, as I'm sure you would like to do for me. This is all such a mess to sort through. What do you think of this list? Also again are we at least in agreement with the numbers in the graphic from the prior comment?
I think we're going in circles a bit. Do we agree on the numbers in the graphic at least?
Daniel 7:23Thus he said, The fourth beast (Rome) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24And the ten horns (European nations) out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first (papacy, a "priest-king"), and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: (calander changes and twisting of God's word to fit their agenda) and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (1260 years beginning in 607AD ending 1867AD)
The simple fact is there is no institution on earth which has lasted long enough to fit 1260 years into except the RCC, neither has there been a more powerful institution, with tenticles in all nations on the planet (think "missions") where the elected leaders pay the Vatican a visit then go back home and do what they were told!
Also, speaking of "preterist" I have found the actual names of the Jesuits who concocted both ends of this deception as well as some prominent vectors of "futurist" propagation:
FUTURISM
Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty- four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the anti-christ, a single individual, would:
-
Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
-
Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
-
Abolish the Christian religion.
-
Deny Jesus Christ.
-
Be received by the Jews.
-
Pretend to be God.
-
Kill the two witnesses of God.
-
Conquer the world.
Another:
Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Disputationum Roberti Bellarmini De controversiis Christian fidei adversus hujus temporis haereticos, (Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time), in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of anti-christ into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years. (See Froom, Prophetic Faith, Vol. 2, pgs. 495 - 502).
Another:
A Treatise of Antichrist. Continuing the defence of Cardinall Bellarmines arguments, which inuincibly demonstrate, that the pope is not anti-christ. Against George Downam by Michael Christopherson priest ..., Volume 1 of 2 by the English Jesuit, Michael Walpole (1570-1624?), 1613 edition. Christopherson is a pseudonym for Walpole. The third chapter, titled "Wherein it is shewed, that anti-christ is not yet come", (pages 49-51) discusses the protestant (Lutheran) Matthias Flacius Illyricus (1520-1575) and his Catalogue of Witnesses to the Truth who before our day cried out against the Pope (Catalogus Testium Veritatis - Basel, 1556), his Magdeburg Centuries (Ecclesiastica Historia, 1559 - 1574), an ecclesiastical history of 13 volumes (1 volume per century) to 1298 A.D. which established from that history that the Bishop of Rome was the Antichrist, and a 1260 year spiritual reign of the papal anti-christ, proposed to be from 606 - 1866 A.D., with the Lord's judgment commencing in 1866! < this is very key to me as the USA severed all diplomatic relations with the Vatican due to their involvement in the Lincoln assassination in 1867!
Another:
Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesias en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"), under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben- Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the anti-christ was still off in the future. His manuscript was published in London, Spain, Mexico and Paris between 1811 and 1826.
More:
Margaret McDonald
Samuel Roffey Maitland
John Nelson Darby
Samuel Prideaux Tregelles
Cyrus Ingerson Scofield
PRETERISM
Proposed by the Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613), who wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. According to Alcazar (or Alcasar):
-
Revelation chapters 1-11 describes the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
-
Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church.
-
Revelation 20 describe the final persecutions by anti-christ, who is identified as Caesar Nero (54- 68 A.D.), and judgment.
-
Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church.
The intent of both Futurism and Preterism was to be diversionary, to counter or offset the correct interpretation, and present alternatives, no matter how implausible they might be. The result is evident: ANTICHRIST IS MOVED EITHER FORWARD OR BACKWARD IN TIME.
Ribera puts the anti-christ into a future 3.5 literal years while Alcazar identifies the anti-christ as Nero. Both of them put anti-christ outside the Middle Ages and the Reformation period, identified by the OG Protestants as anti-christ's reign of 1260 prophetic years. That these interpretations differed so greatly mattered little. Catholicism, the supposedly divine and infallible interpreter of scripture, was presenting two vastly different and quite incompatible interpretations of prophecy in a desperate effort to counter the claims of the Reformers.
These seminaries have wholly abandoned the biblical teaching that the Roman Catholic Church is the apostate church, the harlot of Revelation, with the anti-christ papacy at its head, and instead serve to screen the papal anti-christ power from being perceived by their students or viewers.
-
Dallas Theological Seminary (a nondenominational Protestant school): Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952), a student of Cyrus Scofield, founded Evangelical Theological College (now DTS) in 1924, which is likely the most influential seminary in the United States today. Futurism, and the secret rapture (which they call the blessed hope), are covered in articles 18-20 of the DTS Full Doctrinal Statement.
-
Moody Bible Institute of Chicago: In 1890, C. I. Scofield began a Comprehensive Bible Correspondence Course, later taken over about 1914 by the Moody Bible Institute (Dwight. L. Moody, founder of the Moody Church, had converted Scofield, and Scofield preached and presided at Moody's funeral in 1899)
-
Western Theological Seminary (Reformed Church in America). Alma Mater of Tim LaHaye, founder of the Pre-trib Research Center, co- author of the Left Behind series of books, by far the most popular series promoting Futurism and the secret rapture, which has sold 20 million copies. The film version of the first book in the series has been produced by prophecy authors Peter and Paul Lalonde of Cloud Ten Pictures. Released first on video cassette, and then in theaters in early 2001, people who have seen Left Behind say it is confusing, and lacks a Gospel presentation of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, making it of little (if any) evangelistic value, much like TBN's Omega Code and Megiddo (Omega Code II).
-
Tim LaHaye School of Prophecy - opens in January 2002 on the campus of Liberty University, Lynchburg, V.A., Dr. Jerry Falwell - Chancellor. Tim LaHaye says he was impressed by the prophecy conferences of Albury Park and Powerscourt held in Britain in the 1820's and 1830's and this led directly to his co-founding the Pre- trib Research Center. Edward Irving and J. N. Darby attended, and apparently greatly influenced, these 19th century British prophecy conferences where the secret rapture and futurism gained in acceptance among Protestant prophecy scholars.
I wish I could let you borrow my eyes for a bit to show you what I see, as I'm sure you would like to do for me. This is all such a mess to sort through. What do you think of this list? Also again are we at least in agreement with the numbers in the graphic from the prior comment?
I think we're going in circles a bit. Do we agree on the numbers in the graphic at least?
Daniel 7:23Thus he said, The fourth beast (Rome) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24And the ten horns (European nations) out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first (papacy, a "priest-king"), and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: (calander changes and twisting of God's word to fit their agenda) and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (1260 years beginning in 607AD ending 1867AD)
The simple fact is there is no institution on earth which has lasted long enough to fit 1260 years into except the RCC, neither has there been a more powerful institution, with tenticles in all nations on the planet (think "missions") where the elected leaders pay the Vatican a visit then go back home and do what they were told!
Also, speaking of "preterist" I have found the actual names of the Jesuits who concocted both ends of this deception as well as some prominent vectors of "futurist" propagation:
FUTURISM
Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty- four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would:
-
Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
-
Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
-
Abolish the Christian religion.
-
Deny Jesus Christ.
-
Be received by the Jews.
-
Pretend to be God.
-
Kill the two witnesses of God.
-
Conquer the world.
Another:
Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Disputationum Roberti Bellarmini De controversiis Christian fidei adversus hujus temporis haereticos, (Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time), in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of antichrist into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years. (See Froom, Prophetic Faith, Vol. 2, pgs. 495 - 502).
Another:
A Treatise of Antichrist. Continuing the defence of Cardinall Bellarmines arguments, which inuincibly demonstrate, that the pope is not Antichrist. Against George Downam by Michael Christopherson priest ..., Volume 1 of 2 by the English Jesuit, Michael Walpole (1570-1624?), 1613 edition. Christopherson is a pseudonym for Walpole. The third chapter, titled "Wherein it is shewed, that Antichrist is not yet come", (pages 49-51) discusses the protestant (Lutheran) Matthias Flacius Illyricus (1520-1575) and his Catalogue of Witnesses to the Truth who before our day cried out against the Pope (Catalogus Testium Veritatis - Basel, 1556), his Magdeburg Centuries (Ecclesiastica Historia, 1559 - 1574), an ecclesiastical history of 13 volumes (1 volume per century) to 1298 A.D. which established from that history that the Bishop of Rome was the Antichrist, and a 1260 year spiritual reign of the papal Antichrist, proposed to be from 606 - 1866 A.D., with the Lord's judgment commencing in 1866! < this is very key to me as the USA severed all diplomatic relations with the Vatican due to their involvement in the Lincoln assassination in 1867!
Another:
Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesias en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"), under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben- Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the Antichrist was still off in the future. His manuscript was published in London, Spain, Mexico and Paris between 1811 and 1826.
More:
Margaret McDonald
Samuel Roffey Maitland
John Nelson Darby
Samuel Prideaux Tregelles
Cyrus Ingerson Scofield
PRETERISM
Proposed by the Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613), who wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. According to Alcazar (or Alcasar):
-
Revelation chapters 1-11 describes the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
-
Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church.
-
Revelation 20 describe the final persecutions by Antichrist, who is identified as Caesar Nero (54- 68 A.D.), and judgment.
-
Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church.
The intent of both Futurism and Preterism was to be diversionary, to counter or offset the correct interpretation, and present alternatives, no matter how implausible they might be. The result is evident: ANTICHRIST IS MOVED EITHER FORWARD OR BACKWARD IN TIME.
Ribera puts the anti-christ into a future 3.5 literal years while Alcazar identifies the anti-christ as Nero. Both of them put anti-christ outside the Middle Ages and the Reformation period, identified by the OG Protestants as anti-christ's reign of 1260 prophetic years. That these interpretations differed so greatly mattered little. Catholicism, the supposedly divine and infallible interpreter of scripture, was presenting two vastly different and quite incompatible interpretations of prophecy in a desperate effort to counter the claims of the Reformers.
These seminaries have wholly abandoned the biblical teaching that the Roman Catholic Church is the apostate church, the harlot of Revelation, with the anti-christ papacy at its head, and instead serve to screen the papal anti-christ power from being perceived by their students or viewers.
-
Dallas Theological Seminary (a nondenominational Protestant school): Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952), a student of Cyrus Scofield, founded Evangelical Theological College (now DTS) in 1924, which is likely the most influential seminary in the United States today. Futurism, and the secret rapture (which they call the blessed hope), are covered in articles 18-20 of the DTS Full Doctrinal Statement.
-
Moody Bible Institute of Chicago: In 1890, C. I. Scofield began a Comprehensive Bible Correspondence Course, later taken over about 1914 by the Moody Bible Institute (Dwight. L. Moody, founder of the Moody Church, had converted Scofield, and Scofield preached and presided at Moody's funeral in 1899)
-
Western Theological Seminary (Reformed Church in America). Alma Mater of Tim LaHaye, founder of the Pre-trib Research Center, co- author of the Left Behind series of books, by far the most popular series promoting Futurism and the secret rapture, which has sold 20 million copies. The film version of the first book in the series has been produced by prophecy authors Peter and Paul Lalonde of Cloud Ten Pictures. Released first on video cassette, and then in theaters in early 2001, people who have seen Left Behind say it is confusing, and lacks a Gospel presentation of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, making it of little (if any) evangelistic value, much like TBN's Omega Code and Megiddo (Omega Code II).
-
Tim LaHaye School of Prophecy - opens in January 2002 on the campus of Liberty University, Lynchburg, V.A., Dr. Jerry Falwell - Chancellor. Tim LaHaye says he was impressed by the prophecy conferences of Albury Park and Powerscourt held in Britain in the 1820's and 1830's and this led directly to his co-founding the Pre- trib Research Center. Edward Irving and J. N. Darby attended, and apparently greatly influenced, these 19th century British prophecy conferences where the secret rapture and futurism gained in acceptance among Protestant prophecy scholars.
I wish I could let you borrow my eyes for a bit to show you what I see, as I'm sure you would like to do for me. This is all such a mess to sort through. What do you think of this list? Also again are we at least in agreement with the numbers in the graphic from the prior comment?