I'm reformed as well, I dont think the doctrine on Angels is particularly well settled.
However, i'm open to the fact that the offspring in genesis 6 may be the result of genetic manipulation, if you're trying to preserve that angels cannot take physical form. This would account for how the Nephilim seem to appear in the OT after the flood as well, namely that the experiments continued, or a more "natural explanation" could account for it..
If you prefer this biological / natural explanation for the Nephilim, i have another theory for you:
God chose Noah and his family because they were "clean/blameless in their genealogy/generations". Meaning, that they had not become expressive of the genetic plague that was infecting the world through this experiment. However, Noah's wife was probably the only other named woman in the genealogy of genesis 5, Naamah, a descendant of Cain.
If Naamah was a recessive "carrier" of the Nephilim genes (giantism, polydactylism, hyperaggression, etc), her sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, could have also been carriers.
Stay with me here..
After the flood, Noah became drunk. Then, "Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside."
The phrase "saw the nakedness of his father" is a very specific phrase that doesn't show up again until Lev 18:7-8:
‘The nakedness of your father or the nakedness of your mother you shall not uncover. She is your mother; you shall not uncover her nakedness
‘The nakedness of your father's wife you shall not uncover; it is your father's nakedness.
This indicates that Ham "uncovering his fathers nakedness" was that Ham slept with Noah's wife (his mother), Naamah. Now, if that can be understood as the meaning of this, these two carriers, Ham and Naamah, produced a child, "And Ham was the father of Canaan", "Cursed be Canaan;
A servant of servants
He shall be to his brethren."
Canaan literally translates to "MY HUMILIATION". And from this line of people, the Nephilim bloodline was reintroduced after the flood. All the Nephilim, Goliath, the other sons of Anak, etc. come from this bloodline.
My Bible clearly states that angels mated with human women and bore children, the Nephilim giants. They were still on the earth as evidenced by Joshua and Caleb seeing them in the promised land. There are pictures of giants being unearthed all over world including the US in the 1800s. This is evidence of mixed DNA.
if your bible replaces the phrase "the sons of God/ben elohim" with "angels" it is purposely mistranslating it
Heb specifically says that at no point, God declared any angel to be "my son"
Jesus Christ was declared God's son, Adam was declared God's son, all believers are called God's sons/daughters, priests are called God's firstborn
to translate "sons of God" as "angels" is to call the Hebrews letter writer a liar, and this whole theology angel salvation theology instead of Jesus Christ the high priest theology
Also, angels cannot be saved. They are servants, not sons. There is no angel who can die for the sins of angels. But there is a Son of Man, Jesus, who has died for the sins of Mankind (sons of Adam). There is no redemption for angels because there is no angel that can redeem. As sons, not servants, mankind has a relationship to God as sons, a relationship of forgiveness, mercy, and grace. No angel enjoys this relationship to God, they are his ministers, servants, his "host" or army, not his "children". Angels are NOT image-bearers of God, as God made Adam in his own image. God did not make angels in his image. Angels are not "3 dimensional" in the same way that Mankind is. Mankind is a little trinity, composed of a physical body and an immaterial "soul". Our immaterial is further divided as "soul and spirit". Humans are Spiritual beings, mental (psych/soul) beings, and physical (somatic) beings. Angels are not "physical/somatic" in the same way that we are, having a body which can die (a requirement for salvations), that angels do not have.
I think you're conflating. Clearly, I agree that no other being can be called "The Son of God" in the sense that Jesus is God the Son, the second person of the Trinity.
However, the general expression "sons of God" is used throughout the bible to refer to any being that is the direct creation of God, Luke 3:23-38 "Son of Adam, Son of God". or John 1:12 - "But as many as received him [Jesus], to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
In both of the above cases, we see the bible using the term "son of God" to include the direct creation of God. Adam was hand-made by God in Eden, and those who believe in Jesus are also, a "new creation" by God's direct hand, giving us the power to "become the sons of God."
Finally, the only other time the phase "bene ha elohim"/ "sons of God" is used in this way in the OT, was in Job 1:6 - referring to angels, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them." Because Angels are the direct immediate creation of God.
Let me be very clear: Jesus is not a created being. He is the Son of God in a sense that no creature could ever be. "In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made." Jesus is also the Son of God in the sense that he is the is the "firstborn", again not that Jesus had a beginning as He is co-eternal with the Father, but that he is the HEIR of ALL CREATION:
" He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. "
I believe it's much clearer from the text that the "genetic manipulation" started with the sons of God (fallen angels) taking wives from the daughters of men, ie, angels mated with human women. This is also the explicit explanation from the oldest version of the book of Enoch (c1st Century BC).
Now how that bloodline continued after the flood, I think the above is a good explanation. Otherwise you're left with a non-global flood, which the text does not support.
I agree. Lots of evidence for Giants (greek for hebrew "nephalim is "Gia-gune" - "earth born" - an appropriate name for a synthetic angelic-human hybrid) after the flood. I don't believe in a "second incursion" of fallen angels to make them again after the flood, rather they are the "recessive" hybrid DNA that became prominent after Ham had sex with his mother Naamah, and brought that hybrid DNA back to partial expression. There is nothing matching the description of the nephilim after the flood as before the flood, post-flood giants are a much much much weakened form. Ancient peoples, especially Canaanites probably engaged in selective breeding programs to re-develop these bloodlines. This is why God commanded Joshua to WIPE THEM OUT MAN WOMAN AND CHILD.
I'm fascinated by the possibility that the alien/UFO/UAP phenomenon is actually a cover for interaction with angels (or demons, or maybe both).
There is definitely a pattern of fairly credible reports of strange happenings around the nuclear arsenals of the US and Russia since the end of WWII. I wonder if someone or something doesn't want humanity to nuke itself off the planet. Or maybe there's something else going on.
Tom Delonge (I know, eye roll) has said in interviews that he wants to disclose some of the stories surrounding the phenomena to honor the heroic efforts of some in the military that have remain closely-guarded secrets for a generation. Where else have we heard about a closely-guarded military plan that's a generation old...
I can speak specifically as a Pastor for the last 15 years, I have seen more demonic possession in my experience recently than I have ever seen documented in 1000s of years of Church history. We are living in very strange times.
I have personally performed exorcisms of two individuals, and can attest that they are very very real.
I thought though the original 200 angels that left their abode are in chains below until the final punishment? Otherwise great overview. Steve Quayle was a big learning source for me on all things Nephilim.
That is correct, according to Enoch, 200 fallen angels (or Watchers as they are called) came down to earth in Genesis 6. These same angels produced the first generation of Nephilim.
Also, according to Enoch, they are the ones who taught mankind all kinds of technology: metallurgy, animal husbandry, agriculture, astrology, astronomy, warfare, biology, genetics (root cuttings), pharmacology (sorcery), etc. There's a huge connection between occult practices today and obtaining technological insights, this may actually be how humanity discovered the Atomic Bomb in the first place (just a theory).
And, yes, those 200 angels are now in Tartarus - 2 Peter 2:4-5: " For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into [a]hell [TARTARUS, only time used in the bible] and committed them to [b]pits of darkness, held for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah.."
agreed angels and demons are real. all this alien crap is nonsense for sheep.
no thanks
I'm Reformed, so our perspective:
demons are angels that used to belong to God's host/army but have since the big rebellion have joined the Devil/Satan
the heavenly substance, the things that demons/angels are made from cannot mix with the earthly substance, the stuff that
there are no half-demon-half-earthly mixed substanced beings, bc it is not possible to mix these things acc to Paul
only possible DNA manipulation of mixed earthly creatures/animals/beasts that possibly allow for various kinds of possession by demons
I'm reformed as well, I dont think the doctrine on Angels is particularly well settled.
However, i'm open to the fact that the offspring in genesis 6 may be the result of genetic manipulation, if you're trying to preserve that angels cannot take physical form. This would account for how the Nephilim seem to appear in the OT after the flood as well, namely that the experiments continued, or a more "natural explanation" could account for it..
If you prefer this biological / natural explanation for the Nephilim, i have another theory for you:
God chose Noah and his family because they were "clean/blameless in their genealogy/generations". Meaning, that they had not become expressive of the genetic plague that was infecting the world through this experiment. However, Noah's wife was probably the only other named woman in the genealogy of genesis 5, Naamah, a descendant of Cain.
If Naamah was a recessive "carrier" of the Nephilim genes (giantism, polydactylism, hyperaggression, etc), her sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, could have also been carriers.
Stay with me here..
After the flood, Noah became drunk. Then, "Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside."
The phrase "saw the nakedness of his father" is a very specific phrase that doesn't show up again until Lev 18:7-8:
‘The nakedness of your father or the nakedness of your mother you shall not uncover. She is your mother; you shall not uncover her nakedness ‘The nakedness of your father's wife you shall not uncover; it is your father's nakedness.
This indicates that Ham "uncovering his fathers nakedness" was that Ham slept with Noah's wife (his mother), Naamah. Now, if that can be understood as the meaning of this, these two carriers, Ham and Naamah, produced a child, "And Ham was the father of Canaan", "Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brethren."
Canaan literally translates to "MY HUMILIATION". And from this line of people, the Nephilim bloodline was reintroduced after the flood. All the Nephilim, Goliath, the other sons of Anak, etc. come from this bloodline.
Food for thought.
My Bible clearly states that angels mated with human women and bore children, the Nephilim giants. They were still on the earth as evidenced by Joshua and Caleb seeing them in the promised land. There are pictures of giants being unearthed all over world including the US in the 1800s. This is evidence of mixed DNA.
if your bible replaces the phrase "the sons of God/ben elohim" with "angels" it is purposely mistranslating it
Heb specifically says that at no point, God declared any angel to be "my son"
Jesus Christ was declared God's son, Adam was declared God's son, all believers are called God's sons/daughters, priests are called God's firstborn
to translate "sons of God" as "angels" is to call the Hebrews letter writer a liar, and this whole theology angel salvation theology instead of Jesus Christ the high priest theology
Also, angels cannot be saved. They are servants, not sons. There is no angel who can die for the sins of angels. But there is a Son of Man, Jesus, who has died for the sins of Mankind (sons of Adam). There is no redemption for angels because there is no angel that can redeem. As sons, not servants, mankind has a relationship to God as sons, a relationship of forgiveness, mercy, and grace. No angel enjoys this relationship to God, they are his ministers, servants, his "host" or army, not his "children". Angels are NOT image-bearers of God, as God made Adam in his own image. God did not make angels in his image. Angels are not "3 dimensional" in the same way that Mankind is. Mankind is a little trinity, composed of a physical body and an immaterial "soul". Our immaterial is further divided as "soul and spirit". Humans are Spiritual beings, mental (psych/soul) beings, and physical (somatic) beings. Angels are not "physical/somatic" in the same way that we are, having a body which can die (a requirement for salvations), that angels do not have.
I think you're conflating. Clearly, I agree that no other being can be called "The Son of God" in the sense that Jesus is God the Son, the second person of the Trinity.
However, the general expression "sons of God" is used throughout the bible to refer to any being that is the direct creation of God, Luke 3:23-38 "Son of Adam, Son of God". or John 1:12 - "But as many as received him [Jesus], to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
In both of the above cases, we see the bible using the term "son of God" to include the direct creation of God. Adam was hand-made by God in Eden, and those who believe in Jesus are also, a "new creation" by God's direct hand, giving us the power to "become the sons of God."
Finally, the only other time the phase "bene ha elohim"/ "sons of God" is used in this way in the OT, was in Job 1:6 - referring to angels, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them." Because Angels are the direct immediate creation of God.
Let me be very clear: Jesus is not a created being. He is the Son of God in a sense that no creature could ever be. "In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made." Jesus is also the Son of God in the sense that he is the is the "firstborn", again not that Jesus had a beginning as He is co-eternal with the Father, but that he is the HEIR of ALL CREATION:
" He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. "
I believe it's much clearer from the text that the "genetic manipulation" started with the sons of God (fallen angels) taking wives from the daughters of men, ie, angels mated with human women. This is also the explicit explanation from the oldest version of the book of Enoch (c1st Century BC).
Now how that bloodline continued after the flood, I think the above is a good explanation. Otherwise you're left with a non-global flood, which the text does not support.
I agree. Lots of evidence for Giants (greek for hebrew "nephalim is "Gia-gune" - "earth born" - an appropriate name for a synthetic angelic-human hybrid) after the flood. I don't believe in a "second incursion" of fallen angels to make them again after the flood, rather they are the "recessive" hybrid DNA that became prominent after Ham had sex with his mother Naamah, and brought that hybrid DNA back to partial expression. There is nothing matching the description of the nephilim after the flood as before the flood, post-flood giants are a much much much weakened form. Ancient peoples, especially Canaanites probably engaged in selective breeding programs to re-develop these bloodlines. This is why God commanded Joshua to WIPE THEM OUT MAN WOMAN AND CHILD.
Very good breakdown, spot on
I'm fascinated by the possibility that the alien/UFO/UAP phenomenon is actually a cover for interaction with angels (or demons, or maybe both).
There is definitely a pattern of fairly credible reports of strange happenings around the nuclear arsenals of the US and Russia since the end of WWII. I wonder if someone or something doesn't want humanity to nuke itself off the planet. Or maybe there's something else going on.
Tom Delonge (I know, eye roll) has said in interviews that he wants to disclose some of the stories surrounding the phenomena to honor the heroic efforts of some in the military that have remain closely-guarded secrets for a generation. Where else have we heard about a closely-guarded military plan that's a generation old...
I can speak specifically as a Pastor for the last 15 years, I have seen more demonic possession in my experience recently than I have ever seen documented in 1000s of years of Church history. We are living in very strange times.
I have personally performed exorcisms of two individuals, and can attest that they are very very real.
I thought though the original 200 angels that left their abode are in chains below until the final punishment? Otherwise great overview. Steve Quayle was a big learning source for me on all things Nephilim.
That is correct, according to Enoch, 200 fallen angels (or Watchers as they are called) came down to earth in Genesis 6. These same angels produced the first generation of Nephilim.
Also, according to Enoch, they are the ones who taught mankind all kinds of technology: metallurgy, animal husbandry, agriculture, astrology, astronomy, warfare, biology, genetics (root cuttings), pharmacology (sorcery), etc. There's a huge connection between occult practices today and obtaining technological insights, this may actually be how humanity discovered the Atomic Bomb in the first place (just a theory).
And, yes, those 200 angels are now in Tartarus - 2 Peter 2:4-5: " For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into [a]hell [TARTARUS, only time used in the bible] and committed them to [b]pits of darkness, held for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah.."