In order to claim something exists, you should be able to observe it as a unique entity.
Viruses have been observed as unique entities. We have many electron microscope photos of them. However it cannot be observed in real time with your own eyes.
Science claims viruses exist as definite things that can be isolated and studied.
They can be, and are, just not in the particular way you (and others) are arbitrarily saying they must be to be valid.
If we can engineer machines on a nano scale, I'm pretty sure we have the technology to study things on the scale of a supposed virus.
That's not a logical assumption. First of all, the smallest nano machines are about 10 times the size of the largest virus, and that's not a trivial difference. As well, its not like we have nano machines just roaming around performing technological miracles, they're basically still a completely undeveloped technology just beginning to emerge from theory. Second, you might be able to build nano scale structures with a completely controlled environment, but you cannot find viruses in controlled environments.
Again, without isolation you are assuming what you have in your soup are viruses.
No, you can see them, you know there are tiny little things there. You just can't see them clearly enough in real time, and control them precisely enough, to isolate a single one of them.
you have no idea where they came from
If you swab them from the mucous of a sick person you can be 99.99999999% sure they came from that sick person.
What you do have is the debris from the cellular breakdown caused by starvation and nephrotoxic drugs.
Scientitsts know what those compounds look like, and it is not a realistic expectation that they would mistake them for viral DNA.
evaluated using Koch's or River's
Koch's second postulate, that the organism must be isolated and grown in culture, is not possible with viruses, as they are too small to independently grow. Koch came up with that well before viruses were discovered.
Obviously, they are matching those of other viruses which were generated (not sequenced) the same way.
That's not a rational explanation. Gene sampling is pretty well established technology, used in many applications besides attempting to identify viruses, and it is well proven.
What I am suggesting is not that viruses are not a "thing", rather, that they may represent an entire class of "things" such as exosomes or pleomorphic bacterial phages, products of the cell in response to disease, as opposed to invaders that cause disease, as described by Bechamp.
But, viruses have been observed to do exactly what they are purported to do. They latch on to a cell, the cell bloats then dies and falls apart, and out spring many new copies of the virus. The mechanisms by which they do this, injecting RNA, has also been observed via genetic sequencing techniques finding genetic sequences that are not found in human DNA.
pleomorphic bacterial phages
That would be a virus specialized in infecting bacteria.
Not really. Calling it monomorphic is a straw man. Modern medicine knows very well that cells can change states, bacteria have life cycle driven and environment driven variations on their forms, and that there are many more things not yet understood than understood. I am only talking about what I see from the evidence I've seen, and it is just not explained well by your theory, in my opinion.
Bechamp's pleomorphic theory.
He was certainly way ahead of his time, but he did not have modern methods of observation to see if his hypothesis was correct. We now "know" that cell and bacteria organelles have their roots in smaller, simpler, more ancient organisms, bacteria being like trucks full of these organisms and eukaryotic cells like cities full of them. Perhaps some of these organelles are indeed virus sized. However, we can also separate and analyze the genetic sequences of the organelles, and in the case of mitochondria it is done very commonly. There is no mechanism for healthy cells to generate previously nonexistent DNA sequences and explode into piles of tiny vessels of this new DNA sequence, and even if there were it would not reliably generate the same DNA sequences in many people infectiously across the whole world, sequences that can be differentiated from other similar sequences and vastly different from the DNA of healthy human cells.
you believe in monomorphism, that all microorganisms (or microforms) are fixed species... that each pathological type produces (usually) only one specific disease... that blood and tissues are sterile under healthy conditions
That's quite a straw man. No, I do not believe that, nor does modern medicine. It is well known that diseases vary in effect from person to person, and that these viruses mutate constantly. The attempt to understand how and why it varies and how to still correctly diagnose such diseases is a big part of modern disease research. The purpose of identifying the exact cause of a particular disease is to be able to correctly cure it. Bechamp was as much a proponent of identifying the root cause as anyone, he just had a different theory about it.
I am considering the possibility of pleomorphism... that there are no specific diseases, but only specific disease conditions.
This is simply not supported by the evidence. Even in Bechamps time, bacteria were a known cause of disease. Heck, his theory was based on seeing organelles inside of bacteria. He did not have the benefit of DNA sequencing to figure out if he was correct or not. We do have that benefit today, and viral DNA species have distinct genetic codes compared to bacteria, and bacteria have many thousands of distinct species groups as well. Even if a bacteria could shrink to the size of a virus as part of its life cycle or as a reaction to its environment, it cannot alter its entire DNA chain into a completely unrelated code and remain functional. There's simply no mechanism for doing so. The genetic mechanism for a virus to be a virus, however, is well understood and apparent from evidence available.
may very well be endogenous repair mechanisms expressed when in the presence of a disease condition.
This actually explains the variance in disease symptoms and strength very poorly, since why would different people have identical reactions to completely different disease conditions?
Pleomorphic bacterial phages, what you call "viruses that attack other bacteria" may very well be proteins expressed by bacterial cells as a repair mechanism.
Well, no, bacteriophages kill bacteria, and more bacteriophages emerge from the corpse. Certainly, that is not the bacteria repairing itself.
Honestly, you are dismissing all evidence, straw manning me and modern science, and making a wild claim based on a 170 year old outdated theory. There is plenty wrong with modern medicine, it's almost all poison, but Bechamps pleomorphic theory is not the magical solution.
you are completely dismissing the fact that the so-called "covid" virus has never been isolated
No I've admitted multiple times it's never been isolated in the way you mean.
yet expect your argument that it is real based on a probablistic computer model to hold water.
Yes. Using math to overcome physical limitations is a normal and rational thing to do. Almost all astronomy is done this way.
That's just not how science works.
You are quite incorrect. Tons of science works exactly this way, it is a valid avenue of progress towards better understanding. It can be wrong and people have come to wrong conclusions many times, but that is true of science done without statistical analysis as well.
Science states that viruses are things. Things can be isolated and observed.
Ok, go isolate and observe a black hole. If you can't I will claim that black hole doesn't exist.
If a worldwide pandemic is being declared due to a novel corona virus transmissible between humans, I expect to see the research where it has been isolated from a human and proven infectious.
You are conflating 2 different things here. The virus can be real and the international response to it can still be completely full of shit. Proving that the bureaucrats and politicians are liars does not prove that germ theory is fundamentally incorrect.
The fact that it hasn't says a lot, despite your excuses about technological inability, etc.
It really doesn't. And, you are straw manning again. I never said that the virus cannot be proven to exist and proven to be infectious, I said a single virus cannot be isolated. But, there's plenty of evidence that the virus is real, and that it is infectious. It is nowhere near as infectious or lethal as they claim, but it is real and is infecting people.
can you give me an example of a virus, after having mutated, that presents as a completely different disease?
SARS and COVID, same virus (corona virus), different symptoms, different lethality, different infectiousness. That said, they probably did not mutate naturally, but were instead engineered.
What you call an "outdated" theory is only "outdated" because the prevailing scientific authorities around a hundred years ago dismissed the evidence supporting it
No, I call it outdated because since then more modern technology has demonstrated that it was not correct. I think there are some elements to pleomorphism that perhaps should not have been dismissed, and that may have delayed progress by decades, but progress was made anyway. If Bechamp had the evidence we do now, I doubt very much he would come to the same conclusion he did then. Though, obviously modern medicine is not going particularly well for the health of humanity, it's still way off the rails.
Viruses have been observed as unique entities. We have many electron microscope photos of them. However it cannot be observed in real time with your own eyes.
They can be, and are, just not in the particular way you (and others) are arbitrarily saying they must be to be valid.
That's not a logical assumption. First of all, the smallest nano machines are about 10 times the size of the largest virus, and that's not a trivial difference. As well, its not like we have nano machines just roaming around performing technological miracles, they're basically still a completely undeveloped technology just beginning to emerge from theory. Second, you might be able to build nano scale structures with a completely controlled environment, but you cannot find viruses in controlled environments.
No, you can see them, you know there are tiny little things there. You just can't see them clearly enough in real time, and control them precisely enough, to isolate a single one of them.
If you swab them from the mucous of a sick person you can be 99.99999999% sure they came from that sick person.
Scientitsts know what those compounds look like, and it is not a realistic expectation that they would mistake them for viral DNA.
Koch's second postulate, that the organism must be isolated and grown in culture, is not possible with viruses, as they are too small to independently grow. Koch came up with that well before viruses were discovered.
That's not a rational explanation. Gene sampling is pretty well established technology, used in many applications besides attempting to identify viruses, and it is well proven.
But, viruses have been observed to do exactly what they are purported to do. They latch on to a cell, the cell bloats then dies and falls apart, and out spring many new copies of the virus. The mechanisms by which they do this, injecting RNA, has also been observed via genetic sequencing techniques finding genetic sequences that are not found in human DNA.
That would be a virus specialized in infecting bacteria.
Not really. Calling it monomorphic is a straw man. Modern medicine knows very well that cells can change states, bacteria have life cycle driven and environment driven variations on their forms, and that there are many more things not yet understood than understood. I am only talking about what I see from the evidence I've seen, and it is just not explained well by your theory, in my opinion.
He was certainly way ahead of his time, but he did not have modern methods of observation to see if his hypothesis was correct. We now "know" that cell and bacteria organelles have their roots in smaller, simpler, more ancient organisms, bacteria being like trucks full of these organisms and eukaryotic cells like cities full of them. Perhaps some of these organelles are indeed virus sized. However, we can also separate and analyze the genetic sequences of the organelles, and in the case of mitochondria it is done very commonly. There is no mechanism for healthy cells to generate previously nonexistent DNA sequences and explode into piles of tiny vessels of this new DNA sequence, and even if there were it would not reliably generate the same DNA sequences in many people infectiously across the whole world, sequences that can be differentiated from other similar sequences and vastly different from the DNA of healthy human cells.
That's quite a straw man. No, I do not believe that, nor does modern medicine. It is well known that diseases vary in effect from person to person, and that these viruses mutate constantly. The attempt to understand how and why it varies and how to still correctly diagnose such diseases is a big part of modern disease research. The purpose of identifying the exact cause of a particular disease is to be able to correctly cure it. Bechamp was as much a proponent of identifying the root cause as anyone, he just had a different theory about it.
This is simply not supported by the evidence. Even in Bechamps time, bacteria were a known cause of disease. Heck, his theory was based on seeing organelles inside of bacteria. He did not have the benefit of DNA sequencing to figure out if he was correct or not. We do have that benefit today, and viral DNA species have distinct genetic codes compared to bacteria, and bacteria have many thousands of distinct species groups as well. Even if a bacteria could shrink to the size of a virus as part of its life cycle or as a reaction to its environment, it cannot alter its entire DNA chain into a completely unrelated code and remain functional. There's simply no mechanism for doing so. The genetic mechanism for a virus to be a virus, however, is well understood and apparent from evidence available.
This actually explains the variance in disease symptoms and strength very poorly, since why would different people have identical reactions to completely different disease conditions?
Well, no, bacteriophages kill bacteria, and more bacteriophages emerge from the corpse. Certainly, that is not the bacteria repairing itself.
Honestly, you are dismissing all evidence, straw manning me and modern science, and making a wild claim based on a 170 year old outdated theory. There is plenty wrong with modern medicine, it's almost all poison, but Bechamps pleomorphic theory is not the magical solution.
No I've admitted multiple times it's never been isolated in the way you mean.
Yes. Using math to overcome physical limitations is a normal and rational thing to do. Almost all astronomy is done this way.
You are quite incorrect. Tons of science works exactly this way, it is a valid avenue of progress towards better understanding. It can be wrong and people have come to wrong conclusions many times, but that is true of science done without statistical analysis as well.
Ok, go isolate and observe a black hole. If you can't I will claim that black hole doesn't exist.
You are conflating 2 different things here. The virus can be real and the international response to it can still be completely full of shit. Proving that the bureaucrats and politicians are liars does not prove that germ theory is fundamentally incorrect.
It really doesn't. And, you are straw manning again. I never said that the virus cannot be proven to exist and proven to be infectious, I said a single virus cannot be isolated. But, there's plenty of evidence that the virus is real, and that it is infectious. It is nowhere near as infectious or lethal as they claim, but it is real and is infecting people.
SARS and COVID, same virus (corona virus), different symptoms, different lethality, different infectiousness. That said, they probably did not mutate naturally, but were instead engineered.
No, I call it outdated because since then more modern technology has demonstrated that it was not correct. I think there are some elements to pleomorphism that perhaps should not have been dismissed, and that may have delayed progress by decades, but progress was made anyway. If Bechamp had the evidence we do now, I doubt very much he would come to the same conclusion he did then. Though, obviously modern medicine is not going particularly well for the health of humanity, it's still way off the rails.