"The only other reference in the Bible to Gog and Magog is found in the thirty-eighth and thirty-ninth chapters of Ezekiel. This use of the term by John is rooted in the Old Testament passage. One will have to admit that this is a rather strange battle which Ezekiel described in his vision. Israel is pictured at peace and dwelling in security in her land, with no attempt made to defend herself against the enemy which suddenly and powerfully sweeps down upon her. Without a struggle, as soon as the enemy marches into the land, he is smitten with a catastrophic judgment directly from God. The rest of the vision tells of a glorious celebration of victory on the part of the people of Israel. We must keep in mind that in both passages the language is highly figurative and symbolic, and it can only be interpreted in that light. The fact is, history records no battle in the history of Israel that answers to the one described in Ezekiel’s vision. Nor can we conceive of it as taking place in a literal way in our day or at some future time, for, you see, all the invading army comes riding upon horses, a great company having bucklers and shields, bows and arrows, and all of them handling swords. In addition to this all their weapons are made of wood, and there are so many of them that no man of Israel needs to cut any fire wood for seven years while they use these weapons for fire wood! It certainly doesn’t sound like modern warfare, does it?"
"If John’s vision is symbolic, then so also is Ezekiel’s. The only difference is that John’s version is a little more complete and is given to us in the fuller light of New Testament revelation. In both instances most of our struggles of the Lord’s people are already over, and they are dwelling in a sense of peace and security. There is no struggle at all. In John’s vision this is due to the fact that they have already overcome the beast, the false prophet, Mystery Babylon, and now Satan himself has been bound in the abyss. Ah, there is peace and security! But suddenly the old devil is brought out of his pit where he has been placed. He is turned loose in their midst and there is unleashed upon them an awful attack of the adversary! He gathers all his forces and rants and raves against the redeemed of God. But before he is able to harm a hair on the head of one saint, at once the fiery judgment of God falls upon all the enemies and the devil who leads them. This, my beloved, is no literal warfare fought with conventional weapons — this is the final battle of our spiritual warfare; this is the climax of the most magnificent celebration of victory!"
Much more in the link:
Consider this, what if the 1,000 year rule of Christ has taken place already and we are living in the period where Lucifer deceives the nations even Gog and Magog?
No evidence Christ ruled on earth 1000 years - still future
My question is how will Lucifer deceive all nations after Christ's 1,000 year rule on earth? The only way that can happen is if Satan has his rule completely erased. Jesus is the only way to salvation but everything else is debatable.
It is incredible to think that having lived under Christ's benevolent Kingship for 1000 years that people should still choose to reject Him.
Don't know how this will be achieved but only those of the first resurrection will have been changed the rest will still carry the sin state in them.
Also worth remembering that Psalm 2:9 & Revelation 2:27 that Christ will rule with a rod of iron.
I believe lucifer could only deceive people if over the course of generations he is able to confuse the history. Look around us today does it not appear that the world is deceived into believing all that science says, that UFOs are from other world, and then all of the evil that is in the world. WW1, WW2, now a possible WW3. Just thinking outside of all that I have been taught by schools and even the church.
Certainly the devil could - but what is history? Look at the distrust in Wikipedia - history it is said is written by the victor, it's only one sided. The best grasp on history we might have is from our own short lifetime - even then there are things I might want to 'modify' in the telling of my life!
Three times in Matthew 24 Jesus talks about being deceived, verses 4, 11 & 24, indeed when the disciples first ask their three questions the His first response is '... take heed no one deceives you...' the 'you' here is I think important and it is personal to each of us, we must arm ourselves with the knowledge of Father, Son and Holy Spirit and use our faith as a shield, and it's easier to say/type that then to live it!
That’s amillenialism. Probably the earliest millennial belief among the early church fathers.
There are way too many things that have to happen first prior to the Millennial Reign. In no particular order, they are the four horsemen, the Rapture, the Tribulation, the seals, trumpets and vials, the two witnesses who prophesy for 3 1/2 years, the ministry of the 144,000 Jews. Lots of stuff to consider.
A whole study, here is decades of work on the topic, it is a very in depth study of the spiritual interpretation of Revelation, also known as the idealist interpretive meathod.
https://www.godfire.net/eby/
That is the index to Eby's life work in the book of Revelation.
See this for a good description of the various interpretative models for Revelation: https://bible.org/article/interpretive-models-book-revelation-whole
The Conclusion states that the historicist and idealist views seem untenable, and that the mostly futuristic method is the best.
Yes, I've seen that, I disagree with their conclusion :)
Awesome stuff though, I'm glad we can discuss it.
Many wonders in the 1000 year reign. In the study I'm posing this one goes deep.
https://communities.win/c/GreatAwakening/p/15JUHJFxNT/revelation-202-and-he-laid-hold-/c
The link at the bottom of the OP is specific on the 1000 year reign
:)
This is a real battle, not figurative or symbolic. It obviously hasn't happened yet, but it will. Ezekiel was not aware of modern weaponry so he used language the people could understand. Just because we may not fully understand it does not mean it is "figurative." There is no reason whatsoever to doubt that this event will occur exactly as described.
Yes it is, it is real in the spiritual realm of every man.
It is not earthly, or carnal. That is the real spiritual interpretation of Revelation.
Do you have a real spiritual life?
The idealist method is what's tripping you up. Yes, Christians struggle spiritually, but Revelation is a an account of actual future events, where real battles will be fought between real people with real weapons, it IS earthly.
You know I went 4 decades without ever hearing of any meathod besides the popular "left behind" hogwash. I ignored Revelation because of it's erroneous literal interpretations. Preston Eby and his like were over there preaching it, I'd just never heard it. I think his spiritual interpretation of Revelation is a gift to the Body of Christ, that's why I share it :)
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone” (Rev. 20:9-10). Man’s flesh and the serpent that crawls therein is here visited by the all-consuming Holy Ghost Fire of God!"
There are two Gog events and it is Gog of Magog Ez 38:2 How so long apart - it is the demonic principalities driving events.
You must read the Bible with a Hebrew mindset - a worldly mindset sees Prophecy leading to one event, whereas the Hebrew mindset sees Prophecy as types leading to the final event, e.g Jesus says John the Baptist is Elijah and Elijah still to come. Matthew 17:10-13
The first occurs before the tribulation and probably enables the 'Prince to Come' Daniel 9:26-27 leading to Israel recommencing Temple Sacrifices, the 7 year period interrupted by The Anti-Christ after 3.5 years - 42 months - 1260 days.
Why does it come before Ezekiel 39:9 Israel shall gather up the armaments and use then as fuel for 7 years. There is only one final 7 year period we are looking for - the Tribulation period.
Because the Bible uses symbols doesn't mean that it is all symbolic! Images - symbols - travel through time far better than words which are subject to change in languages. So Ez 28:16 speaks of this attack coming like a cloud - so most likely some sort of aerial attack not something that could have been understood until the 20th Century.
The amazing thing is that even though Christ rules for 1000 years, with peace, prosperity, longevity etc that once satan is released and sends his emissaries nations will still want to come against Christ!
Where is the camp of the saints - Jerusalem Ezekiel 40-48 the millennial temple where Christ will reign from over all the earth.
Good reply if you are putting the Revelation into literal time. The author of the study, studied Hebrew :)
Why did you delete?
Ok, I answered after a delete, now it's back.
The whole study is here:
https://www.godfire.net/eby/
Why would one not put the Revelation into temporal time, after all that is what is stated in the opening three verses of the book.
It is prophecy, and this direct from God through His Son. The Bible is estimated to be what about 30% prophecy and as we have seen most has come to be.
Biblical prophesy achieves the following:
Fulfilment testifies to the rest of the word, you cannot accurately or reliably prophecy events far in the future unless you have knowledge.
Prophesy means that when prophesied events occur - and lets be straight some of the events set out in the Revelation are quite frightening, but we when we see prophesy coming to fruition we need not be afraid because we see God is in control and we know the eventual outcome Revelation 19-22 - Millennial Kingdom of Christ on the earth - Resurrection of Believers - Wickedness being dealt with and finally entry into Eternity when the messes of temporal time behind us.
Prophecy is not primarily telling the future, it can be, it is primarily speaking for God, or on God's behalf, or some other entity.
Revelation is Prophecy for all generations, it is the unveiling of Jesus Christ in our earth, world, existence. Jesus Christ reigning in man, it is not an end times book.
Hi - Indeed prophecy can be taken to mean both forth-telling and fore-telling.
In the Book of Revelation we read:
Revelation 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.
So things which you have seen - forth-telling - Chapter 1 Christ in His glorious state.
Things which are - the sate of the churches, given the nature of Chapters 2 & 3 this is both forth-telling and fore-telling, but that is a far deeper evaluation than is space for here.
Things to take place after this, joined with
Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” i.e. after the events of chapters 2&3 the church period.
Rev 1:1, 1:9 and 4:1 all clearly state that this prophecy is primarily about things which will take place in the future thus fore-telling.
There are aspects of chapters 4&5 which could be taken as Forth-Telling about Christ but for the most part the information conveyed if future so fore-telling.
Finally and here we must agree to disagree Revelation is a book about the end times. When asked about 'the end times' Matthew 24 Jesus points to the key marker v15 the abomination and Daniel. Jesus pointed them and us to Daniel 9 & 12 and Daniel points us to Revelation chapters 12 & 13.
The Bible shows us the commencement of temporal time in Genesis 1 and to the close of temporal time, the dealing with the wickedness of angels and men and the entry, for us, to eternity in Revelation. Without Revelation we would have concern that the wickedness and evil of this world would continue forever - which indeed is why God banished Adam and Eve from Eden
Genesis 3:22-23 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden..." Live forever in his fallen state.
Glad I could let you explain your understanding of the book. I'm doing pretty much the same, I've been reading Preston Eby's series on Revelation. He teaches it from a spiritual understanding, it's taken about a year to get through the whole study.
From Eby's understanding of the book, it is Christ being unveiled in a people, in every generation. It's been good.
Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
"But Gog and Magog compass the “camp of the saints.” What is meant by “the camp of the saints”? The expression, rightly understood, is full of interest. When Israel was moving out of Egypt under God’s guidance, into the land of promise, it became the Lord’s host (Ex. 12:17,41,51). When its tents were pitched it became the Lord’s camp (Ex. 15:19; 16:13). God was in its midst, and therefore the camp was holy. The unclean were to be put outside (Num. 5:3-4; Josh. 6:18). Now, under the guidance of the greater Joshua, Jesus, the called and chosen elect of the Lord are following Him to their promised land — the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ! They are the camp of heaven on earth now, or the true people of God, and the camp of the saints is the body of Christ, and the glorious body of Christ is indeed OVER THE WHOLE WORLD! Gog and Magog assault also “the beloved city,” the heavenly Jerusalem. The saints are at first the tent-pitchers in this heavenly walk. Thus, the camp of the saints is distinct from the city; but it bespeaks all those separated ones of the Lord’s people who have come out of the Egypt of this world and have made the journey from the camp in the wilderness to the glorious city of God — a strong people, a mature people, a perfected people, a compacted people, a peaceful people. So therefore it is impossible for Russia to be Gog and Magog, or for any other world power of the past or future to fulfill the prophecy, for our great and eternal Father is not warning us about the petty kingdoms of men, but speaks to us of spiritual realities, both positive and negative, that touch our lives as we go on to perfection in Christ! God is not concerning himself with either Russia or the nation called Israel — He’s concerning Himself with you!"
"Their number is “as the sand of the sea.” Notice! They are identified with both the “sea” and the “earth,” that is, with the body realm and the soul realm. It bespeaks mankind — the flesh. They gather for battle. Oh, yes, the natural man, with the passions and lusts of the body, and the carnal mind of the soul, always gather to battle against the spirit! “The flesh wareth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh.” What an imposing array they present! “They went up on the breadth of the earth.” They “marched up” and covered the whole expanse of the earth to the horizon in all directions from “the camp of the saints.” The spiritual life is portrayed as completely surrounded and outnumbered! “The beloved city,” the elect of the Lord, is left without a single apparent avenue of retreat or escape."
"It also speaks to the soulical realm, the inherent religious nature of man. This points to deceptive teachings of apostasy everywhere “surrounding the saints” which is “the beloved city.” It does not mean soldiers, armies, tanks, and missiles arrayed to inflict physical harm or destruction on the Lord’s people. Though that has happened, and is still happening to believers today in various part of the world, the vision would not be given in signs and symbols if it were fulfilled in such a literal way. It is the Father’s fiery word of truth (Jer. 23:29) that devours and burns up all the adversaries of deception and false doctrines in the heart of every saint. Oh, how the whole church world is full of false doctrines and deceptions which surround all the elect of the Lord! We can hardly buy a book from a Christian bookstore because they are all so laced with the errors and falsities of Babylon!"