This is a copy of the transcript of Pastor John's audio linked above:
Let’s start with an overarching position on the conflict, and then I will try to put some Bible underneath it and explain. When I say conflict, I mean the conflict between the Jewish people — or Israel the state and Jews as a body — and the Palestinians.
Both Christ-Rejecting Rebels
There are Jewish Christians and there are Palestinian Christians. These Christians are the meek who will inherit the earth, including the land of Israel someday. Jesus died to make peace between Jews and the nations. That is the point of Ephesians 2:11–22. Therefore, our prayers and labors should be especially devoted to heralding the gospel of Messiah Jesus as the only hope for long-term peace and justice among Jews and Palestinians. That is the most important thing to say, I believe.
“A people in treason against her King cannot lay legitimate claim on the King’s promises to a covenant-keeping people.”
Then I would say this: The Bible does not teach that we should be partial to Israel or to the Palestinians in the present Christ-rejecting rebellion that both of them participate in against God, as if either of them have a divine right to the land of Israel in spite of their rebellion and unbelief against their Maker and their covenant God. This carries the implication that both sides, Palestinians and Israel, should be treated with compassionate, public justice in the same way that disputes are generally settled between nations, with a wise mingling of justice and mercy. That is my overarching position. Neither Jews or Palestinians can justify anything they do or be treated any particular way by claiming a present-day divine right to the land while they are living in rebellion against the One who made the land a gift of covenant-keeping.
The Specific Promises
Now here is some biblical foundation for that. Israel was chosen by God from all the peoples of the world to be the focus of his blessing in history, the history of redemption. This history climaxed in the coming and death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. “The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth” (Deuteronomy 7:6). Amen. Israel is God’s chosen people.
Not only that, but God promised to Israel the presently disputed land from the time of Abraham onward. God said, “This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, ‘I will give it to your offspring’” (Deuteronomy 34:4). Statements to that effect are repeated many times. But neither of those two facts — Israel’s election and God’s covenant promise of the land — means that Israel has a present-day divine right to the land.
Rebels Forfeit Rights
Why do I say that? Because a non-covenant-keeping people does not have a divine right to hold the land of promise which was given by covenant. Covenant-breaking forfeits covenant privileges. God said to Israel, “If you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples” (Exodus 19:5).
“Our plea as Christians to Palestinians and Jews is this: Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.”
Today, Israel is a covenant-breaking people. There are thousands, I know, of Messiah-trusting Jews. They are not covenant-breaking. They enjoy God’s saving favor. But as a whole, as an ethnic unity, as a state, they are defined by rejecting Messiah Jesus. They don’t want to define themselves as Christian. If they embraced Messiah Jesus as Messiah and Savior, they would be Christian. They are self-consciously not Christian. They are in a state of treason against their King who sent his Son to save them. A people in treason against her King cannot lay legitimate claim on the King’s promises to a covenant-keeping people.
For example, when Israel was driven from the land of promise under God’s judgment with the Babylonians, Daniel prayed like this:
O Lord . . . we have sinned and done wrong . . . To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame . . . to all Israel . . . in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you (Daniel 9:4-7).
In other words, God is righteous. He is righteous to deny Israel her divine right to the land when she is a treacherous, treasonous people against God.
Part of the Plan
Jesus stood looking out over Jerusalem with tears and said, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. . . . You did not know the time of your visitation” (Luke 19:41–42, 44). They had rejected the cornerstone. They still do.
“This hardening of Israel is not God’s last word. He has a saving purpose for Israel.”
When they did, Jesus said, “The kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits” (Matthew 21:43). Then he explained like this: “Many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness” (Matthew 8:11–12). For now a hardening has come upon Israel (Romans 11:25).
These are the times of the Gentiles, the times of the nations. But this hardening of Israel is not God’s last word. He has a saving purpose for Israel. All Israel will someday turn to the Lord Christ as a group. This is my deep understanding and belief of Romans 11. The broken-off branches will be grafted in one day to the people of God, the bride of Christ, his church. I think we should pray for that day. I pray, “Lord, bring the day when the hardening will be lifted from Israel. Grant, O God, that their eyes would be opened, that they would see Jesus as their Messiah and join the church of Jesus Christ. In one great tree of covenant love, may they be grafted into salvation.”
Plea to All Peoples
We must be careful — perhaps this is a closing qualification — not to draw false and unbiblical inferences from anything I have said, like: Well, Israel’s present rebellion against God means that other nations have the right to molest her. No, they don’t. She still has human rights among nations when she has no rights before God, just like all the nations do. We don’t think any nation, because it is a pagan and unbelieving nation, should be treated unjustly. Neither should Israel. In the Old Testament, the nations that gloated over her divine discipline were punished by God (Isaiah 10).
Our plea as Christians to Palestinians and Jews is this: Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Until that day when both Jewish and Gentile followers of King Jesus inherit the earth — not just the land — until that day when we together inherit the earth without lifting a sword and without lifting a gun, the rights of nations should be decided by principles of compassionate, public justice, not claims to divine right or divine status.
Interesting view MuckeyDuck. One thing that needs some polishing if you don't mind; you say that ('For example, when Israel was driven from the land of promise under God’s judgment by the Babylonians') To be clear, it was the Tribe of Judah and the Tribe of Benjamin that lived in Judea that were deported by the Babylonians. Nowhere do the Scriptures say that Babylon captured and deported the Israelites. To be brief on that subject, it is important to remember that it was the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel that were invaded in 721 BC by the Assyrians and they were all deported to the north-west where they never returned to the land that was once called Israel. II Esdras clearly states how a large part of Israel went to the land of Arsareth (where no man liveth) [Europe} in the north-west never to return. They travelled through the Caucasus mountains, through what is known to this day as the Pass of Israel. The Assyrians called the Israelites Saksen, Saksuna which means Sons of Isaac. We know the word today as Saxon. In the last deportation, the Assyrians also named the last of the Israelites, the Khumri which means Sons of Omri, whiom was a king in the Northern 10 Tribes of Israel. Meanwhile, Judea in the South composed mainly of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin remained mostly intact.
It was about 140 years later that Babylon invaded Judea (about 586 BC) and deported the Judeans (Jews) to Babylon. Jeremiah and the two daughters of King Zedekiah were spared. As such, there were NEVER any Israelites in the Babylonian deportation and captivity being that the Assyrians had already deported Israel over one hundred thirty years earlier.
When reading the Scriptures its very important not to confuse Israel and Judah as being the same, they are not synonymous. There is much more to this story, suffice it to say that when the Jews through the Balfour declaration settled in the old land of Judea, they were only ONE Tribe, claiming to be of the House of Judah. When they named this land ISRAEL, it just added more confusion for the modern preacher to misunderstand what the Bible really tells us. I am sure that you have heard the term, the Lost Tribes Of Israel. Well, the true Israelites were NEVER lost, they are just known today by new names. James wrote to the Israelites in the misty isles afar off in the north and west. Paul visited them in Gaul, Britain and in Rome and many other places. Many Israelites had already settled in Greece during the times when the JUDGES ruled in Israel well before the Assyrians deported the Northern 10 Tribes of Israel. Many Greeks were actually of the tribe of Simeon. Peter visited the remnant of Israelites in Asia-Minor where the Trojan kingdom once existed. There are many other accounts on where the Tribes of Israel existed during the times of the Apostles.
In the begining it had all started with Jacob who was surnamed Israel and Jacob-Israel was the father of the twelve tribes, it was only after the death of King Solomon that Israel separated into two distinct nations, that of the Ten Tribed Israel in the North and the Nation of Judah in the South composed of the two Tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Anyway, thought this information might help with defining the difference between the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel and who those people are today. Best wishes.
I thought it would be self evident that the text was a paste of transscript of what the preacher said in audio linked to post. I apologize if that was not clear.
Okay that makes sense. I thought these were all your own words and it was that one issue with the difference between the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel that I thought should be clarified. Christians need to understand the difference for the end of the Age of Grace. Does not matter however, you took the time to transcribe and explain the subject matter and I really appreciate when OPs make the extra effort to do so. Thanks for that.
I read you comment, and believe you know much on this subject, but I was trained by Q to also research for myself. It would be helpful if you could provide me with some references that I can look over.
Except for the original 1611 King James Bible which contains the Apocryphal books along with both Assyrian and Babylonian clay tablet records which prove the accuracy of the Bible, I am not sure where online that you could look. For all these references you have to study the Scriptures and know how to analyze the Chaldee words that were used in the origial Masoretic texts and well as knowing the Old Greek of the Septuagint. Remember that because the true Hebrew language was lost to the Judeans, it was replaced by Chaldee which is Eastern Aramaic which is an ADMIXTURE of both but mostly Babylonian and some Hebrew words. That is why today in the state of Israel the Jews do not speak Hebrew they speak Yiddish which is the old Khazar language or they speak Aramaic as was spoken in Judea during Christ's time. There are many things that simply don't exist on the internet and you end up having to dig through all the misinformation that Christians have been led to believe because their own Pastors and Priests have never studied the old languages or connected the dots with accurate historical records from the Assyrians and Babylonians.
I re-listened to the audio, and I think your disagreement with regard to Babylonians comes from the text being wrongly transcribed from the audio. What Pastor John actually says in the audio is:
For example, when Israel was driven from the land of promise under God’s judgment with (does not say by) the Babylonians.
Then the Pastor is correct. Israel was driven from the promised land by the Assyrians, then 135 years later Judea was captured and the Tribe of Judah and Benjamin were deported to Babylon by King Nebuchadnezzar. After 50 years, they had lost their culture and language where the true Hebrew language was lost to these Judeans. Only the Israelites that had been deported earlier by the Assyrians had kept the Hebrew language when they came to the land of Arsareth (Europe). Compared to today, we could call it a form of Social Marxism better known a multiculturalism which destroyed the culture of the Judeans in Babylon.
It was Zerubabel a Prince of Judah that asked the Persian King Cyrus for his people to return to Jerusalem and the request was granted. Only a small remnant of Judah a little over 43,000 returned at about 536 BC. Nehemiah and a while later Ezra returned to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem. It was there that Ezra bemoaned the fact that his people no longer understood Hebrew and he had to translate to Chaldee for them to understand. This whole story is way too long for this forum.
This is a copy of the transcript of Pastor John's audio linked above:
Let’s start with an overarching position on the conflict, and then I will try to put some Bible underneath it and explain. When I say conflict, I mean the conflict between the Jewish people — or Israel the state and Jews as a body — and the Palestinians.
Both Christ-Rejecting Rebels
There are Jewish Christians and there are Palestinian Christians. These Christians are the meek who will inherit the earth, including the land of Israel someday. Jesus died to make peace between Jews and the nations. That is the point of Ephesians 2:11–22. Therefore, our prayers and labors should be especially devoted to heralding the gospel of Messiah Jesus as the only hope for long-term peace and justice among Jews and Palestinians. That is the most important thing to say, I believe.
“A people in treason against her King cannot lay legitimate claim on the King’s promises to a covenant-keeping people.”
Then I would say this: The Bible does not teach that we should be partial to Israel or to the Palestinians in the present Christ-rejecting rebellion that both of them participate in against God, as if either of them have a divine right to the land of Israel in spite of their rebellion and unbelief against their Maker and their covenant God. This carries the implication that both sides, Palestinians and Israel, should be treated with compassionate, public justice in the same way that disputes are generally settled between nations, with a wise mingling of justice and mercy. That is my overarching position. Neither Jews or Palestinians can justify anything they do or be treated any particular way by claiming a present-day divine right to the land while they are living in rebellion against the One who made the land a gift of covenant-keeping.
The Specific Promises
Now here is some biblical foundation for that. Israel was chosen by God from all the peoples of the world to be the focus of his blessing in history, the history of redemption. This history climaxed in the coming and death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. “The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth” (Deuteronomy 7:6). Amen. Israel is God’s chosen people.
Not only that, but God promised to Israel the presently disputed land from the time of Abraham onward. God said, “This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, ‘I will give it to your offspring’” (Deuteronomy 34:4). Statements to that effect are repeated many times. But neither of those two facts — Israel’s election and God’s covenant promise of the land — means that Israel has a present-day divine right to the land.
Rebels Forfeit Rights
Why do I say that? Because a non-covenant-keeping people does not have a divine right to hold the land of promise which was given by covenant. Covenant-breaking forfeits covenant privileges. God said to Israel, “If you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples” (Exodus 19:5).
“Our plea as Christians to Palestinians and Jews is this: Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.”
Today, Israel is a covenant-breaking people. There are thousands, I know, of Messiah-trusting Jews. They are not covenant-breaking. They enjoy God’s saving favor. But as a whole, as an ethnic unity, as a state, they are defined by rejecting Messiah Jesus. They don’t want to define themselves as Christian. If they embraced Messiah Jesus as Messiah and Savior, they would be Christian. They are self-consciously not Christian. They are in a state of treason against their King who sent his Son to save them. A people in treason against her King cannot lay legitimate claim on the King’s promises to a covenant-keeping people.
For example, when Israel was driven from the land of promise under God’s judgment with the Babylonians, Daniel prayed like this:
O Lord . . . we have sinned and done wrong . . . To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame . . . to all Israel . . . in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you (Daniel 9:4-7).
In other words, God is righteous. He is righteous to deny Israel her divine right to the land when she is a treacherous, treasonous people against God.
Part of the Plan
Jesus stood looking out over Jerusalem with tears and said, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. . . . You did not know the time of your visitation” (Luke 19:41–42, 44). They had rejected the cornerstone. They still do.
“This hardening of Israel is not God’s last word. He has a saving purpose for Israel.”
When they did, Jesus said, “The kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits” (Matthew 21:43). Then he explained like this: “Many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness” (Matthew 8:11–12). For now a hardening has come upon Israel (Romans 11:25).
These are the times of the Gentiles, the times of the nations. But this hardening of Israel is not God’s last word. He has a saving purpose for Israel. All Israel will someday turn to the Lord Christ as a group. This is my deep understanding and belief of Romans 11. The broken-off branches will be grafted in one day to the people of God, the bride of Christ, his church. I think we should pray for that day. I pray, “Lord, bring the day when the hardening will be lifted from Israel. Grant, O God, that their eyes would be opened, that they would see Jesus as their Messiah and join the church of Jesus Christ. In one great tree of covenant love, may they be grafted into salvation.”
Plea to All Peoples
We must be careful — perhaps this is a closing qualification — not to draw false and unbiblical inferences from anything I have said, like: Well, Israel’s present rebellion against God means that other nations have the right to molest her. No, they don’t. She still has human rights among nations when she has no rights before God, just like all the nations do. We don’t think any nation, because it is a pagan and unbelieving nation, should be treated unjustly. Neither should Israel. In the Old Testament, the nations that gloated over her divine discipline were punished by God (Isaiah 10).
Our plea as Christians to Palestinians and Jews is this: Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Until that day when both Jewish and Gentile followers of King Jesus inherit the earth — not just the land — until that day when we together inherit the earth without lifting a sword and without lifting a gun, the rights of nations should be decided by principles of compassionate, public justice, not claims to divine right or divine status.
Interesting view MuckeyDuck. One thing that needs some polishing if you don't mind; you say that ('For example, when Israel was driven from the land of promise under God’s judgment by the Babylonians') To be clear, it was the Tribe of Judah and the Tribe of Benjamin that lived in Judea that were deported by the Babylonians. Nowhere do the Scriptures say that Babylon captured and deported the Israelites. To be brief on that subject, it is important to remember that it was the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel that were invaded in 721 BC by the Assyrians and they were all deported to the north-west where they never returned to the land that was once called Israel. II Esdras clearly states how a large part of Israel went to the land of Arsareth (where no man liveth) [Europe} in the north-west never to return. They travelled through the Caucasus mountains, through what is known to this day as the Pass of Israel. The Assyrians called the Israelites Saksen, Saksuna which means Sons of Isaac. We know the word today as Saxon. In the last deportation, the Assyrians also named the last of the Israelites, the Khumri which means Sons of Omri, whiom was a king in the Northern 10 Tribes of Israel. Meanwhile, Judea in the South composed mainly of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin remained mostly intact.
It was about 140 years later that Babylon invaded Judea (about 586 BC) and deported the Judeans (Jews) to Babylon. Jeremiah and the two daughters of King Zedekiah were spared. As such, there were NEVER any Israelites in the Babylonian deportation and captivity being that the Assyrians had already deported Israel over one hundred thirty years earlier.
When reading the Scriptures its very important not to confuse Israel and Judah as being the same, they are not synonymous. There is much more to this story, suffice it to say that when the Jews through the Balfour declaration settled in the old land of Judea, they were only ONE Tribe, claiming to be of the House of Judah. When they named this land ISRAEL, it just added more confusion for the modern preacher to misunderstand what the Bible really tells us. I am sure that you have heard the term, the Lost Tribes Of Israel. Well, the true Israelites were NEVER lost, they are just known today by new names. James wrote to the Israelites in the misty isles afar off in the north and west. Paul visited them in Gaul, Britain and in Rome and many other places. Many Israelites had already settled in Greece during the times when the JUDGES ruled in Israel well before the Assyrians deported the Northern 10 Tribes of Israel. Many Greeks were actually of the tribe of Simeon. Peter visited the remnant of Israelites in Asia-Minor where the Trojan kingdom once existed. There are many other accounts on where the Tribes of Israel existed during the times of the Apostles.
In the begining it had all started with Jacob who was surnamed Israel and Jacob-Israel was the father of the twelve tribes, it was only after the death of King Solomon that Israel separated into two distinct nations, that of the Ten Tribed Israel in the North and the Nation of Judah in the South composed of the two Tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Anyway, thought this information might help with defining the difference between the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel and who those people are today. Best wishes.
I thought it would be self evident that the text was a paste of transscript of what the preacher said in audio linked to post. I apologize if that was not clear.
I added that notification to my comment text.
Okay that makes sense. I thought these were all your own words and it was that one issue with the difference between the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel that I thought should be clarified. Christians need to understand the difference for the end of the Age of Grace. Does not matter however, you took the time to transcribe and explain the subject matter and I really appreciate when OPs make the extra effort to do so. Thanks for that.
I read you comment, and believe you know much on this subject, but I was trained by Q to also research for myself. It would be helpful if you could provide me with some references that I can look over.
Except for the original 1611 King James Bible which contains the Apocryphal books along with both Assyrian and Babylonian clay tablet records which prove the accuracy of the Bible, I am not sure where online that you could look. For all these references you have to study the Scriptures and know how to analyze the Chaldee words that were used in the origial Masoretic texts and well as knowing the Old Greek of the Septuagint. Remember that because the true Hebrew language was lost to the Judeans, it was replaced by Chaldee which is Eastern Aramaic which is an ADMIXTURE of both but mostly Babylonian and some Hebrew words. That is why today in the state of Israel the Jews do not speak Hebrew they speak Yiddish which is the old Khazar language or they speak Aramaic as was spoken in Judea during Christ's time. There are many things that simply don't exist on the internet and you end up having to dig through all the misinformation that Christians have been led to believe because their own Pastors and Priests have never studied the old languages or connected the dots with accurate historical records from the Assyrians and Babylonians.
I re-listened to the audio, and I think your disagreement with regard to Babylonians comes from the text being wrongly transcribed from the audio. What Pastor John actually says in the audio is:
For example, when Israel was driven from the land of promise under God’s judgment with (does not say by) the Babylonians.
Then the Pastor is correct. Israel was driven from the promised land by the Assyrians, then 135 years later Judea was captured and the Tribe of Judah and Benjamin were deported to Babylon by King Nebuchadnezzar. After 50 years, they had lost their culture and language where the true Hebrew language was lost to these Judeans. Only the Israelites that had been deported earlier by the Assyrians had kept the Hebrew language when they came to the land of Arsareth (Europe). Compared to today, we could call it a form of Social Marxism better known a multiculturalism which destroyed the culture of the Judeans in Babylon.
It was Zerubabel a Prince of Judah that asked the Persian King Cyrus for his people to return to Jerusalem and the request was granted. Only a small remnant of Judah a little over 43,000 returned at about 536 BC. Nehemiah and a while later Ezra returned to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem. It was there that Ezra bemoaned the fact that his people no longer understood Hebrew and he had to translate to Chaldee for them to understand. This whole story is way too long for this forum.