EXCLUSIVE: Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano Summoned to Vatican to be Excommunicated | The Gateway Pundit | by Guest Contributor
Guest post by Joe Hoft at JoeHoft.com – republished with permission Breaking News – Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano has been summoned to the Vatican to be Excommunicated by Red Pope Francis.
Look, if you want to talk scripture, first go through the points I made. You're looking for every reason to deny Jesus, I hope you see that.
Jesus saying he existed before Abraham and specifically uses I AM, which is what the Jews at that time would have referred to as God, being itself.
Then in John 1:1 you say "Well, that's it right there" and you still deny.
John 10:33 - Do you not understand why Jesus became the Word Incarnate in Flesh? When you figure out why Jesus came into the flesh, it'll make sense to you why He was tempted and tortured and crucified. Why he said "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me" he was referring to Psalms 22.
Every other point you're making is absurd. We have manuscripts dating to the late 1st and early 2nd centuries proving that Scripture is unchanged. If you don't believe in Scripture, then I understand why you're skeptical of all the eyewitnesses calling Jesus God. I suppose you're also skeptical of all those who were Martyred for what they believed.
Honestly, it is so refreshing seeing all of your objections because it shows me how the Holy Spirit filled the early Church and protected it from heresy. Read St. Basils "On the Holy Spirit" - it addresses every single claim you've brought up.
If you're trying to debunk Christianity, first try and understand it outside of a Protestant or anti-Catholic perspective. Start with the Church Fathers, the Cappadocian Fathers were excellent in their rebukes of heresy. The Trinity is a very simple doctrine to understand, it is clear as day that Jesus Christ is God when reading the New Testament - not even atheists scholars like Bart Ehrman deny this.
You seem to have a problem with how God speaks through a prophet.
I am a Christian. I claim God was speaking through His pure son, Jesus Christ, who was with Him in Heaven before the world was made. God had another son who did not obey Him, and we know the result. Do you not see the same template with Jacob and Esau? Anyways, I addressed most of those verses in the comment that I linked to you. For the ones I didn't address, Isaiah 9:6 is the only one which is a challenge. (I'm not going back through to see which ones I responded to as you wholeheartedly discarded everything I said about them). I will have to study and pray on Isaiah 9:6, you just may have changed my mind.
You are NOT a Christian, you are a Gnostic. Jesus Christ is NOT just a prophet or Messiah, He is the Son of God who is One with his Father and the Holy Spirit. That is the definition of Christian. You are closer in belief to Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses. You deny the Trinity and you deny Christ who said "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven".
I take it you were a Protestant that fell into Gnosticism because of a weak faith. Your willful spirit makes you reject His Church and Her traditions. The Church Fathers already addressed all of the issues the blind sheep have raised in this thread.
Prayer is good, but make sure you're praying to Jesus. Pray for your soul and for forgiveness for denying the Lord and being a prideful individual who rejected Him. The Spirit will convict you only if you come with an open and pleading heart.
Prayers of an intellectual mean nothing to the Lord.
Agreed.
Disagreed, you conflate my skepticism on the "established understanding and dogma" of "The Trinity" with me denying Christ, which is quite the charge to levy as I just told you in detail my understanding of Christ and belief in Him.
Who all do you include within this label, may I ask? The very title itself speaks volumes.
Matthew 23:9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Remember these words.
Yes, by denying the Triune God you deny Christ, for if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, the Father, or the Son, you blaspheme them all since they are One. I can guarantee since you didn't reply to it, that you were a Protestant who fell into Gnostic heresies.
Matthew 23:9 is referring to the Pharisees. You continually show you are weak in the faith and have a poor understanding of the Church and Scripture.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4:15 "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel."
How do we uphold commandment 5 if we can't call our father, father?
When was Scripture canonized? You deny the Trinity because you think it's a Church invention, yet the Church Fathers before Nicea had a consensus which affirmed the Trinity.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."
Do you see how your prideful nature stops you from even looking for answers as any earnest spiritual seeker or academic would? If this was about a conspiracy theory you'd be knee deep in it, clicking on random links and videos to find any bit of truth. It hasn't even dawned on you that your position is absurd and has already been debunked thousands of years ago.
If you have to ask who the Church Fathers are, then you are truly lost and without any guidance from the early leaders of the Church. Jesus Christ promised the Gates of Hades will NEVER prevail against his church, and here you are proclaiming Christ is a liar and his Church fell into a "Trinitarian heresy".
Start with St. Athansius and work your way up to the Cappadocian Fathers. If you want closer sources to the time of Christ, I suggest reading Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, or Polycarp of Smyrna - all who were in direct contact with the Apostles. There is also the Didache which fleshes out the authentic Christian worldview.