Yeah but it’s good reading. I like to think of it as Christian fan fiction. True or not I don’t care, it encourages people to believe in Christ and live wholesome lives and that’s ok by me. It reads like scripture and results in the same warm happy feelings I felt while reading the New Testament. Haven’t been a believer since 2009 but would still recommend The Book of Mormon to anyone looking for...well anything. I’m an English major though so I’m kind of a fan of literature generally.
I will say it’s a little weird hearing one person who believes in Christ telling other people who believe in him (albeit with some additional stories in their library) that they’re headed for damnation though. If you believe that salvation comes through faith in him by his grace for doing so I don’t see how anyone can think Mormons aren’t gonna be saved with the rest of you. This doctrine of exclusion seems as extra-Biblical as anything I’ve ever heard. At the very least these are your brothers in MAGA, even if their idea of Christ varies a bit from yours. So maybe chill out a bit on the hellfire speeches.
I recently realized that every person has God's messenger (which talks to the pineal gland) and God's savior (which touches the heart). Every culture talks about these using different wording; but, we all have the ability for salvation.
I don't know how it works, in other cultures, not having studied them as much as mine. I didn't even know how it worked in mine, until a year or so ago!
Romans 10:9 is how it works.
Two organs needed: the mouth, and the heart. Saying it, is the easy part. :)
The 66 books of "canonical" Scripture are less than 10% of what's known to be hidden in the Vatican.
Well I’m not religious anymore so I don’t really need luck in this discussion but I’ve read the Book of Mormon cover to cover at least 25 times before I left the church and I never saw a single passage that suggested that one bit. The book literally never shuts up about Jesus and refers to him as either God or the Son of God on literally thousands of occasions. As a missionary my mission President in mexico literally made us go through and underline each and every time Jesus Christ was mentioned and I think it worked out to like once every 3-4 verses or something. It was the most annoying homework assignment I’ve ever had.
Again, I don’t believe in the divinity of Christ myself anyway (although I’m a big fan) and I’m no longer Mormon so it’s even weird to be having this discussion right now but your statement was annoyingly, demonstrably false. The Book of Mormon may be technically untrue in that it’s clearly a work of fiction but it does literally nothing except point people to Jesus and encourage people to believe in him. To say otherwise is asinine.
The night sky is not proof of god unless you can prove a god made it, and you can't. So its just you making the claim the night sky is proof of a god. It can easily exist without a god.
Its okay to admit you have no proof of any god, let alone your specific version of god. Claiming something is proof doesn't magically make it proof.
You're acting as if people don't know how twacked out Mormonism is. How can you actually look yourself in the mirror thinking that the Book of Mormon is true?
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, (Mormons, LDS) I want to tell you those of us within the United States are overwhelmingly patriotic. Although our church does not officially endorse any political candidate or party, the majority of individual members are patriotic. Ignore Romney and even Harry Reid, they do not represent us.
This video is from 1986 but the prophecy is much older than this.
Exmormon here. Can still confirm: Harry Reid and Mitt Romney notwithstanding, Mormons by and large are completely based and MAGA all the live-long day. I love living in Utah for that very reason. Whether you’re Mormon or Exmormon, if you love America, Utah is the shit. No desire to move ever. Almost all my friends are MAGA Exmormons too. I may not believe in that stuff anymore but I still got respect for guys like Ezra Taft Benson. He never would have stood for all this commie shit. He wrote whole books against it.
Haha oh if I came back I would definitely be excommunicated. I still love the faith though. Kinda like one still loves their hometown even though they’ve moved away.
Goes back to Joe Smith. I admit, most mormons are good sincere people. It is the theology that is corrupt and they simply do not realize it, especially if they are born into it. My genealogy comes through Brigham Young and one of his 27+ wives. Lived it for 34 years. My dad worked with George Romney circa 1950 to gain converts and set up a church ward in the Toledo area. Romney got my dad to sell his super cool Ford (with tail fins) for a stupid Rambler station wagon. LOL. Anyway I feel sorry for Mormons as they just do not realize the circumstance they find themselves in. Sad really if you think about eternity and where they will likely end up. Final word to my mormon friends, your salvation is by Grace, not works. There is absolutely nothing you can do to earn it. God Bless.
Lol I’m sorry I know the Mormon church has its own problems but the fact that it spawned Harry Reid and Mitt hardly puts it on par with the sins of the Vatican. Come on.
If you really are a true Mormon, you’re not allowed to read it. You’re leaders restrict you from reading truth.
But if you read it, you will learn the truth from a very special lady who wrote it. And it’ll open your eyes to so much truth your entire world will change for good.
Try "Mormonism, Shadow or Reality" Utah lighthouse ministries, Gerald and Sandra Tanner. If they are still around. Book should be available somewhere i imagine. Or Walter Martins "Kingdon of the Cults".
cesletter.org for those that would like to see why mormonism cannot be what it claims to be.
I love the laymembers of the religion, but the religion itself is not true, it hoards wealth (140+ Billion dollars and untold amounts more in land holdings, etc) while demanding its members pay 10% of everything they make even before they feed their own children, has a history of oppression (murdering native americans, oppressing women/black people/lgbt, anti-civil rights and anti-equal rights during the 1960's-70'setc), and its claims are demonstrably false, as they constantly change their 'eternal and revealed doctrine', often throwing their past prophets under the bus in order to do so.
But the lay members are good people who want to do what is right, and more often than not are patriotic and lovers of freedom (when it suits them of course, not as much for it when it doesn't).
Lastly, this 'prophecy' by the mormon prophet is false. Washing will be saved, but it absolutely was done in washington, by Trump and company, working with the military, who have gathered the evidence and who will hold them accountable.
This is just mormonism trying to ride the coattails of what Trump et al in washington have worked so very hard to accomplish on our behalf, using the claim that it 'prophesied' this to try and attain undeserved relevancy in what is going on.
Dig further, the CES letter is full of holes. If you'd like to pick 1 single topic in the CES letter, I would be happy to give you the rebuttal. That is, if you are interested in both sides.
CES does have holes, its not perfect, its not meant to be. And I wish its author would remove some of the weaker and irrelevant arguments. What is is, however, is a jumping off point the user can consult to see what the potential issues are because the church has kept them mostly to completely hidden from its membership while demonizing sources that did draw attention to them, and then (in the online version) follow to primary sources, read them, and draw their own conclusions.
And I've read all the rebuttals, from fairmormon, from other apologists, from BYU scholars, etc., and the rebuttals to the rebuttals, and the rebuttals to those, and nothing comes even close to explaining all the central and fatal issues, and they all need to be explained. I spent 8 years looking for answers, and only found excuses, rationalizations, poor apologetics full of inconsistent standards of evidence and logical fallacies, special pleadings, and outright admissions that X or Y thing was actually true, in spite of being claimed to be false for decades upon decades.
There is no single, overarching theory that explains all the central and fatal issues of mormonism, except one - its another human invented religion like all the rest.
The apologetics to Mormonism are no different and no more convincing than the apologetics to Jehova's Witness, to Islam, to 7th Day Adventists, etc.
And most telling of all, the only people (per mormonism) who can receive the official answers by revelation, have completely abdicated giving any official real answers at all. And no, things like "we just can't know", "they were just people of their time", "we just can't know the origin of this doctrine" and the like are not answers. "Well maybe it was...." and "Its possible that...." and "What if...", these are not answers, they are guesses, nothing more. They are admissions that they don't actually have the answer, and nothing more.
Mormon leaders have ceased going on the record with anything that would be claimed a revealed, restored and unchanging truth that might later be testable, because they know that on almost everything the church has made claims about that ended up being testable (age of the earth, universal flood, oriign of languages, literal adam and eve 6k years ago, reality of the book of abraham, origins of north american first peoples, lgbt being a choice, etc etc etc) they have been shown to be wrong, and in many cases admitted they were wrong, in spite of claiming for decades to centuries via prophetic assurance that they were right. Mormonism and its claims, like those of most religions, are in a constant state of retreat as observation and the scientific method debunks them one after the next.
I appreicate your willingness to engage the issues, but like I said, I spent 8 years doing so, and directly engaging countless people, countless sources (especially primary sources) and the like, and I found the answer - its simply another human invented religion, like the rest. I'm sure you find mormon apologetics suffiient, as do JW's and theirs, and Islam and their apologetics, but they just don't hold up under scrutiny/peer review/real world observation, sorry.
If you'd like to choose just 1 issue, I would be happy to discuss. But not a whole list, and not a link of what somebody else suggest you ask. Just 1 single topic and I'm happy to discuss it.
Mormon apologetics only 'work' in isolation of the rest, and without talking about the effects they have on other apologetics for other topics.
Again, perhpas mormon apologetics are enough for you, just as JW apologetics are enough to convince JW's their religion is true, but both fall woefully short for me.
I appreciate the offer, but I have no need to discuss them after 8 years of intently doing so. I no longer have questions about mormonism and, barring any new evidence, am quite sure it is false, much the same way you don't have doubts about Jehova's Witness and are confident it is false.
Joe Smith also prophesied that people lived on the moon. In general they are about 6 feet tall (tall for Joe Smiths day) and dress like quakers. In regards to saving the constitution, He said the Constitution will some day 'hang by a thread' and that the mormon priesthood would step in and save it. Mitt Romney thought he would be the man on the white horse to do so. Ha Ha Mitt. This post by an ex mormon, born into that faith and believed it until age 34 when I became a believer in Christ.
Joseph Smith the Freemason, racist, liar, prophet?
The Book of Mormon is a lie from beginning to end and Mormons think they will become gods when in fact they are heading for damnation.
Yeah but it’s good reading. I like to think of it as Christian fan fiction. True or not I don’t care, it encourages people to believe in Christ and live wholesome lives and that’s ok by me. It reads like scripture and results in the same warm happy feelings I felt while reading the New Testament. Haven’t been a believer since 2009 but would still recommend The Book of Mormon to anyone looking for...well anything. I’m an English major though so I’m kind of a fan of literature generally.
I will say it’s a little weird hearing one person who believes in Christ telling other people who believe in him (albeit with some additional stories in their library) that they’re headed for damnation though. If you believe that salvation comes through faith in him by his grace for doing so I don’t see how anyone can think Mormons aren’t gonna be saved with the rest of you. This doctrine of exclusion seems as extra-Biblical as anything I’ve ever heard. At the very least these are your brothers in MAGA, even if their idea of Christ varies a bit from yours. So maybe chill out a bit on the hellfire speeches.
Really love your ending there.
I recently realized that every person has God's messenger (which talks to the pineal gland) and God's savior (which touches the heart). Every culture talks about these using different wording; but, we all have the ability for salvation.
I don't know how it works, in other cultures, not having studied them as much as mine. I didn't even know how it worked in mine, until a year or so ago!
Romans 10:9 is how it works.
Two organs needed: the mouth, and the heart. Saying it, is the easy part. :)
The 66 books of "canonical" Scripture are less than 10% of what's known to be hidden in the Vatican.
So much more to know.
God bless.
It teaches a different gospel, one that denies the diety of Christ. Good luck with that.
Well I’m not religious anymore so I don’t really need luck in this discussion but I’ve read the Book of Mormon cover to cover at least 25 times before I left the church and I never saw a single passage that suggested that one bit. The book literally never shuts up about Jesus and refers to him as either God or the Son of God on literally thousands of occasions. As a missionary my mission President in mexico literally made us go through and underline each and every time Jesus Christ was mentioned and I think it worked out to like once every 3-4 verses or something. It was the most annoying homework assignment I’ve ever had.
Again, I don’t believe in the divinity of Christ myself anyway (although I’m a big fan) and I’m no longer Mormon so it’s even weird to be having this discussion right now but your statement was annoyingly, demonstrably false. The Book of Mormon may be technically untrue in that it’s clearly a work of fiction but it does literally nothing except point people to Jesus and encourage people to believe in him. To say otherwise is asinine.
Jokes on you, as well, heaven and hell don't exist, and there's no proof for a god or damnation. You are the pot calling the kettle black.
But, ya all are patriots, so who cares:)
Have you looked into the dark night sky? Proof of God is before your very eyes.
The night sky is not proof of god unless you can prove a god made it, and you can't. So its just you making the claim the night sky is proof of a god. It can easily exist without a god.
Its okay to admit you have no proof of any god, let alone your specific version of god. Claiming something is proof doesn't magically make it proof.
So true.
You must have the wrong guy
You're acting as if people don't know how twacked out Mormonism is. How can you actually look yourself in the mirror thinking that the Book of Mormon is true?
triggered
Not really. Im not the one in a ridiculous cult full of goofs that think they are going to become gods and inherit their own world.
NOPE! and I was raised in that crap. Lots of fun though as it has social programs for kids.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, (Mormons, LDS) I want to tell you those of us within the United States are overwhelmingly patriotic. Although our church does not officially endorse any political candidate or party, the majority of individual members are patriotic. Ignore Romney and even Harry Reid, they do not represent us. This video is from 1986 but the prophecy is much older than this.
Exmormon here. Can still confirm: Harry Reid and Mitt Romney notwithstanding, Mormons by and large are completely based and MAGA all the live-long day. I love living in Utah for that very reason. Whether you’re Mormon or Exmormon, if you love America, Utah is the shit. No desire to move ever. Almost all my friends are MAGA Exmormons too. I may not believe in that stuff anymore but I still got respect for guys like Ezra Taft Benson. He never would have stood for all this commie shit. He wrote whole books against it.
As an fellow ex Mormon, I agree with what you said, bit would like to add this:
Just like every other religion and "official" faith based practice on this planet, the "regular Joe" practitioners are, by and large, good people.
It's the leadership of these groups that are corrupt and evil.
I know where you're coming from, having been excommunicated myself and have come back.
Hold the line, brother.
Haha oh if I came back I would definitely be excommunicated. I still love the faith though. Kinda like one still loves their hometown even though they’ve moved away.
Goes back to Joe Smith. I admit, most mormons are good sincere people. It is the theology that is corrupt and they simply do not realize it, especially if they are born into it. My genealogy comes through Brigham Young and one of his 27+ wives. Lived it for 34 years. My dad worked with George Romney circa 1950 to gain converts and set up a church ward in the Toledo area. Romney got my dad to sell his super cool Ford (with tail fins) for a stupid Rambler station wagon. LOL. Anyway I feel sorry for Mormons as they just do not realize the circumstance they find themselves in. Sad really if you think about eternity and where they will likely end up. Final word to my mormon friends, your salvation is by Grace, not works. There is absolutely nothing you can do to earn it. God Bless.
Won't be us directly. Mormon church is as bad as.the Vatican. Gave us Harry Reid, Romney etc.
Mitt Romney sure is a sack of crap huh? He showed his true colors.
Lol I’m sorry I know the Mormon church has its own problems but the fact that it spawned Harry Reid and Mitt hardly puts it on par with the sins of the Vatican. Come on.
Good Point!
Good book to help you fren: https://www.amazon.com/Mormonism-Mama-Me-Thelma-Geer/dp/0802456332
If you follow Joseph Smith, things like blood atonement allows you kill anyone you want and it’s all good.
Incorrect.
Read that book I posted. Mormonism, momma and me.
If you really are a true Mormon, you’re not allowed to read it. You’re leaders restrict you from reading truth.
But if you read it, you will learn the truth from a very special lady who wrote it. And it’ll open your eyes to so much truth your entire world will change for good.
I'm allowed to read anything I choose. It sounds like you don't know much about us.
Perfect, I challenge you to read it then.
I have. Now it's your turn.
Try "Mormonism, Shadow or Reality" Utah lighthouse ministries, Gerald and Sandra Tanner. If they are still around. Book should be available somewhere i imagine. Or Walter Martins "Kingdon of the Cults".
cesletter.org for those that would like to see why mormonism cannot be what it claims to be.
I love the laymembers of the religion, but the religion itself is not true, it hoards wealth (140+ Billion dollars and untold amounts more in land holdings, etc) while demanding its members pay 10% of everything they make even before they feed their own children, has a history of oppression (murdering native americans, oppressing women/black people/lgbt, anti-civil rights and anti-equal rights during the 1960's-70'setc), and its claims are demonstrably false, as they constantly change their 'eternal and revealed doctrine', often throwing their past prophets under the bus in order to do so.
But the lay members are good people who want to do what is right, and more often than not are patriotic and lovers of freedom (when it suits them of course, not as much for it when it doesn't).
Lastly, this 'prophecy' by the mormon prophet is false. Washing will be saved, but it absolutely was done in washington, by Trump and company, working with the military, who have gathered the evidence and who will hold them accountable.
This is just mormonism trying to ride the coattails of what Trump et al in washington have worked so very hard to accomplish on our behalf, using the claim that it 'prophesied' this to try and attain undeserved relevancy in what is going on.
Dig further, the CES letter is full of holes. If you'd like to pick 1 single topic in the CES letter, I would be happy to give you the rebuttal. That is, if you are interested in both sides.
My invitation awaits your response.
Cheers.
CES does have holes, its not perfect, its not meant to be. And I wish its author would remove some of the weaker and irrelevant arguments. What is is, however, is a jumping off point the user can consult to see what the potential issues are because the church has kept them mostly to completely hidden from its membership while demonizing sources that did draw attention to them, and then (in the online version) follow to primary sources, read them, and draw their own conclusions.
And I've read all the rebuttals, from fairmormon, from other apologists, from BYU scholars, etc., and the rebuttals to the rebuttals, and the rebuttals to those, and nothing comes even close to explaining all the central and fatal issues, and they all need to be explained. I spent 8 years looking for answers, and only found excuses, rationalizations, poor apologetics full of inconsistent standards of evidence and logical fallacies, special pleadings, and outright admissions that X or Y thing was actually true, in spite of being claimed to be false for decades upon decades.
There is no single, overarching theory that explains all the central and fatal issues of mormonism, except one - its another human invented religion like all the rest.
The apologetics to Mormonism are no different and no more convincing than the apologetics to Jehova's Witness, to Islam, to 7th Day Adventists, etc.
And most telling of all, the only people (per mormonism) who can receive the official answers by revelation, have completely abdicated giving any official real answers at all. And no, things like "we just can't know", "they were just people of their time", "we just can't know the origin of this doctrine" and the like are not answers. "Well maybe it was...." and "Its possible that...." and "What if...", these are not answers, they are guesses, nothing more. They are admissions that they don't actually have the answer, and nothing more.
Mormon leaders have ceased going on the record with anything that would be claimed a revealed, restored and unchanging truth that might later be testable, because they know that on almost everything the church has made claims about that ended up being testable (age of the earth, universal flood, oriign of languages, literal adam and eve 6k years ago, reality of the book of abraham, origins of north american first peoples, lgbt being a choice, etc etc etc) they have been shown to be wrong, and in many cases admitted they were wrong, in spite of claiming for decades to centuries via prophetic assurance that they were right. Mormonism and its claims, like those of most religions, are in a constant state of retreat as observation and the scientific method debunks them one after the next.
I appreicate your willingness to engage the issues, but like I said, I spent 8 years doing so, and directly engaging countless people, countless sources (especially primary sources) and the like, and I found the answer - its simply another human invented religion, like the rest. I'm sure you find mormon apologetics suffiient, as do JW's and theirs, and Islam and their apologetics, but they just don't hold up under scrutiny/peer review/real world observation, sorry.
If you'd like to choose just 1 issue, I would be happy to discuss. But not a whole list, and not a link of what somebody else suggest you ask. Just 1 single topic and I'm happy to discuss it.
I've been around the block more than a few times.
Mormon apologetics only 'work' in isolation of the rest, and without talking about the effects they have on other apologetics for other topics.
Again, perhpas mormon apologetics are enough for you, just as JW apologetics are enough to convince JW's their religion is true, but both fall woefully short for me.
I appreciate the offer, but I have no need to discuss them after 8 years of intently doing so. I no longer have questions about mormonism and, barring any new evidence, am quite sure it is false, much the same way you don't have doubts about Jehova's Witness and are confident it is false.
Thank you and have a great night.
Joe Smith also prophesied that people lived on the moon. In general they are about 6 feet tall (tall for Joe Smiths day) and dress like quakers. In regards to saving the constitution, He said the Constitution will some day 'hang by a thread' and that the mormon priesthood would step in and save it. Mitt Romney thought he would be the man on the white horse to do so. Ha Ha Mitt. This post by an ex mormon, born into that faith and believed it until age 34 when I became a believer in Christ.
So to you ex Mormons, who did you get caught having sex with that made you mad enough to leave the church? LOL
Your mom, actually ;)