Downvoted, not sure why. I'm not expressing agreement or disagreement with you, but it's a fair stance to take that a literal entity of Satan does not exist, and that, instead, "Satan" is a figurative representation of the absence of God.
Given that goodness is defined by God, evil is inherently the absence of God. Satan need not be an entity, and hell need not be literally a universe/plane/"place" of fire and torture; if total separation from God is 100% "evil" (because total separation from God means total separation from goodness) then hell could literally be the state of the soul that has pushed away God, and then died, severing all ties to God. As God grants us free will, such separation should be possible; making hell literally a uniquely and individually self-imposed state of absolute and maximal suffering.
This has evidence in the real world, as well. Those who chose evil and sin typically are the most miserable people on this planet. They create their own personal hells; their conscience tortures them; in response, they push God and their own humanity as far away as possible.
Does this mean an entity of "satan" cannot exist, or that hell in the more traditional sense cannot? I don't believe so. I simply think we don't know enough; distinction, also, seems unnecessary; either way, God is good, and hell is to be avoided at all costs; something that can be done by turning to God.
You might want to learn a little more about the occult and their customs. They literally rent out Catholic Churches for black mass weddings where Satan appears in human form to “marry” one of his “brides”. Seven brides exist worldwide at any given time. I have read books of Christians who have escaped from this dark world of Satanism.
Satan’s biggest accomplishment is fooling those who don’t believe in his existence.
I have been in tune with the paranormal my whole life and I can tell you for a fact that real demons exist and they fear the name of Jesus.
For one, I don't dispute that there are those that practice occult "customs"; just because they practice it, doesn't mean it's legitimate or real.
As far as you're personal experiences; I'm not going to tell you what you did or did not experience.
That said, I'm sure you can understand that, as someone who has not had experiences of that nature, nor seen any evidence other than testimony, I take a stance of skepticism. Is it all possible? Sure. I'm open-minded enough to understand that, and, if presented with overwhelming argument or evidence, I may change my stance. In other words, I'm reserving judgement.
Many people have claimed many things. User testimony is valuable, but, depending on the circumstances, can only go so far, especially when there are potential alternative explanations.
As I said before; I am not sure it entirely matters. God's power dwarfs that of Satan; we are to reject sin; regardless of where it comes from.
Thanks for the information! Discussion of such important topics is always valuable!
I'm not going to say much, I believe you've provided a great reply.
As I've gotten older and read more philosophy, I've sort of thought about the idea of hell from a few different view points.
I've noticed that when some, but not all, people talk about a satan/devil like being they put him on the opposite end of God, some being who is a rival to the Supreme, but God hasn't destroyed this evil being because 'reasons'.
But when I think about it, such a figure is more like an administrative position, dealing out punishments for sins as prescribed by God, I mean why else would Satan punish sinners if he was against God?
And when talking about God and his mercy and love why do we limit it?
Suffering in hell for all eternity?
Where is God's love and mercy there?
Does God only provide one life to people to get it right?
I know the Bible doesn't talk much about it, but a system of karma and reincarnation sounds merciful compared to hell for eternity.
As you probably can tell I'm not well versed in the Bible, but I believe Jesus is real and I believe he is the son of God.
Just seemed odd that people talk about God's great mercy and love, but they don't extend it to all living entities or even all humans for that matter.
I agree with most of what you said. That's one of the reason I'm skeptical of the existence of such a "satan" entity entirely; God's mercy is so great, and free will so important, that I am inclined to believe that hell HAS to be a choice, less than some kind of "punishment" dished out by God.
I think the idea of hell is attractive to a lot of people because it fits with a lot of the ideas of justice; that said, I tend to take a lot more of a philisophical and metaphysical approach to it all; being Catholic I was raised on the principles of "religion of the word, not the book"; non Catholics often don't understand what that means and misinterpret; basically, it's saying that Biblical literalism is a dead-end because the Bible is one of many sources of truth. It is a very valuable source, literalism is illogical and ignores the true depth of the messages of the Bible.
I think one of the harder things for people to wrap their mind around is just the magnitude of God's creation, and God's relation with His creation. I don't pretend to comprehend it, but I think I understand some parts. Perhaps most importantly, God defines everything. God is omnipotent; not subject to our descriptions. God is not good, good is that which is of God (God is good, I say it in this way to emphasize the dichotomy). God did not create evil because evil is defined as that which in opposition to God.
We are created in God's image; to be good. By doing that which is not good, we are rejecting God; running from Him. As happiness comes from goodness, those that chose evil cannot be happy. The farther they turn from God, the more they suffer. God gives them every chance to return and be completely forgiven; if they do not accept it, God lets them go. Being immortal in soul, they waste away in Godlessness and pure suffering. They are literally reaping what they sew; no punishment from God or torture from "satan" necessary.
That said, Satan or Hell in the traditional sense could exist; this does not preclude that, it just explains the nature of such things further, should they exist; and it provides an alternative explanation if they don't.
As far as other living entities; the explanation I usually hear and take myself is that they don't have a [unique] soul. They don't have free will, they are simply biological computers with inputs and outputs. That said, the apparent love which they are capable of expressing seems so much more. I think it's possible that, in a weird way, animals are almost reincarnations. Maybe God controls them and uses them as a conduit to express love to us directly; or to change things in the world that need changing (saving children from burning buildings, as one example). Maybe the souls of those that came before us can "inhabit" them in a similar manner.
I think these verses are relevant to all of these topics, and, indeed, our times in general:
"Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.
I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has the authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very heirs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid, you are worth more than many sparrows."
Again thank you, we share alot in common on this subject.
My mother was raised Catholic but no longer practices and father was raised Christian, alot of my views come from them.
But they raised me with a more eastern philosophy flavour. So it's coloured my thinking.
Example: The body is a vehicle inhabited by the soul.
The soul is the eternal spiritual living entity, that which is the real us, that which was made in God's image in a qualitive sense not just a body image sense as well.
By its nature the soul would be eternal too.
Bodies come and go all the time, what a man sow, that shall he also reap in bodies as well.
I was taught that the same soul may inhabit all different kinds of bodies, but by God's mercy it's only in the human form that we are given enough intelligence to seek a way out of this hell, a chance to get to know god and hold him in our hearts.
The true devil would be our desires which keep us mired in the material world distracted from the open door right in front of us.
Do I believe in hell? Yes. I believe anywhere that God is not "present"(in the hearts of men) is by definition hell.
Have a good one friend, we may not agree on everything but we can agree in God, sometimes that's enough.
Downvoted, not sure why. I'm not expressing agreement or disagreement with you, but it's a fair stance to take that a literal entity of Satan does not exist, and that, instead, "Satan" is a figurative representation of the absence of God.
Given that goodness is defined by God, evil is inherently the absence of God. Satan need not be an entity, and hell need not be literally a universe/plane/"place" of fire and torture; if total separation from God is 100% "evil" (because total separation from God means total separation from goodness) then hell could literally be the state of the soul that has pushed away God, and then died, severing all ties to God. As God grants us free will, such separation should be possible; making hell literally a uniquely and individually self-imposed state of absolute and maximal suffering.
This has evidence in the real world, as well. Those who chose evil and sin typically are the most miserable people on this planet. They create their own personal hells; their conscience tortures them; in response, they push God and their own humanity as far away as possible.
Does this mean an entity of "satan" cannot exist, or that hell in the more traditional sense cannot? I don't believe so. I simply think we don't know enough; distinction, also, seems unnecessary; either way, God is good, and hell is to be avoided at all costs; something that can be done by turning to God.
You might want to learn a little more about the occult and their customs. They literally rent out Catholic Churches for black mass weddings where Satan appears in human form to “marry” one of his “brides”. Seven brides exist worldwide at any given time. I have read books of Christians who have escaped from this dark world of Satanism. Satan’s biggest accomplishment is fooling those who don’t believe in his existence. I have been in tune with the paranormal my whole life and I can tell you for a fact that real demons exist and they fear the name of Jesus.
For one, I don't dispute that there are those that practice occult "customs"; just because they practice it, doesn't mean it's legitimate or real.
As far as you're personal experiences; I'm not going to tell you what you did or did not experience.
That said, I'm sure you can understand that, as someone who has not had experiences of that nature, nor seen any evidence other than testimony, I take a stance of skepticism. Is it all possible? Sure. I'm open-minded enough to understand that, and, if presented with overwhelming argument or evidence, I may change my stance. In other words, I'm reserving judgement.
Many people have claimed many things. User testimony is valuable, but, depending on the circumstances, can only go so far, especially when there are potential alternative explanations.
As I said before; I am not sure it entirely matters. God's power dwarfs that of Satan; we are to reject sin; regardless of where it comes from.
Thanks for the information! Discussion of such important topics is always valuable!
God bless you!
I'm not going to say much, I believe you've provided a great reply.
As I've gotten older and read more philosophy, I've sort of thought about the idea of hell from a few different view points.
I've noticed that when some, but not all, people talk about a satan/devil like being they put him on the opposite end of God, some being who is a rival to the Supreme, but God hasn't destroyed this evil being because 'reasons'.
But when I think about it, such a figure is more like an administrative position, dealing out punishments for sins as prescribed by God, I mean why else would Satan punish sinners if he was against God?
And when talking about God and his mercy and love why do we limit it? Suffering in hell for all eternity? Where is God's love and mercy there? Does God only provide one life to people to get it right?
I know the Bible doesn't talk much about it, but a system of karma and reincarnation sounds merciful compared to hell for eternity.
As you probably can tell I'm not well versed in the Bible, but I believe Jesus is real and I believe he is the son of God.
Just seemed odd that people talk about God's great mercy and love, but they don't extend it to all living entities or even all humans for that matter.
I agree with most of what you said. That's one of the reason I'm skeptical of the existence of such a "satan" entity entirely; God's mercy is so great, and free will so important, that I am inclined to believe that hell HAS to be a choice, less than some kind of "punishment" dished out by God.
I think the idea of hell is attractive to a lot of people because it fits with a lot of the ideas of justice; that said, I tend to take a lot more of a philisophical and metaphysical approach to it all; being Catholic I was raised on the principles of "religion of the word, not the book"; non Catholics often don't understand what that means and misinterpret; basically, it's saying that Biblical literalism is a dead-end because the Bible is one of many sources of truth. It is a very valuable source, literalism is illogical and ignores the true depth of the messages of the Bible.
I think one of the harder things for people to wrap their mind around is just the magnitude of God's creation, and God's relation with His creation. I don't pretend to comprehend it, but I think I understand some parts. Perhaps most importantly, God defines everything. God is omnipotent; not subject to our descriptions. God is not good, good is that which is of God (God is good, I say it in this way to emphasize the dichotomy). God did not create evil because evil is defined as that which in opposition to God.
We are created in God's image; to be good. By doing that which is not good, we are rejecting God; running from Him. As happiness comes from goodness, those that chose evil cannot be happy. The farther they turn from God, the more they suffer. God gives them every chance to return and be completely forgiven; if they do not accept it, God lets them go. Being immortal in soul, they waste away in Godlessness and pure suffering. They are literally reaping what they sew; no punishment from God or torture from "satan" necessary.
That said, Satan or Hell in the traditional sense could exist; this does not preclude that, it just explains the nature of such things further, should they exist; and it provides an alternative explanation if they don't.
As far as other living entities; the explanation I usually hear and take myself is that they don't have a [unique] soul. They don't have free will, they are simply biological computers with inputs and outputs. That said, the apparent love which they are capable of expressing seems so much more. I think it's possible that, in a weird way, animals are almost reincarnations. Maybe God controls them and uses them as a conduit to express love to us directly; or to change things in the world that need changing (saving children from burning buildings, as one example). Maybe the souls of those that came before us can "inhabit" them in a similar manner.
I think these verses are relevant to all of these topics, and, indeed, our times in general: "Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.
I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has the authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very heirs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid, you are worth more than many sparrows."
Again thank you, we share alot in common on this subject.
My mother was raised Catholic but no longer practices and father was raised Christian, alot of my views come from them. But they raised me with a more eastern philosophy flavour. So it's coloured my thinking. Example: The body is a vehicle inhabited by the soul.
The soul is the eternal spiritual living entity, that which is the real us, that which was made in God's image in a qualitive sense not just a body image sense as well. By its nature the soul would be eternal too.
Bodies come and go all the time, what a man sow, that shall he also reap in bodies as well. I was taught that the same soul may inhabit all different kinds of bodies, but by God's mercy it's only in the human form that we are given enough intelligence to seek a way out of this hell, a chance to get to know god and hold him in our hearts.
The true devil would be our desires which keep us mired in the material world distracted from the open door right in front of us.
Do I believe in hell? Yes. I believe anywhere that God is not "present"(in the hearts of men) is by definition hell.
Have a good one friend, we may not agree on everything but we can agree in God, sometimes that's enough.
You too, friend!