The holocaust was real. Too many eyewitnesses to it.
This is why I specified the gassing and killing of jews. I'm not denying they got sent to camps in an attempt to purge germany of them. I'm denying that they were gassed and killed. That was a lie. See the link I posted for more detail.
If the creator of the universe commands it, it is moral.
If you think the first thing "God" commands you to do to babies fresh out of the womb is chop off part of their genitals against their will, thats not god you're worshipping buddy, its satan calling himself god.
Just because something claiming itself to be god tells you to do something doesn't make the thing right or wrong. You're basically just taking the personal responsibility for your actions off of yourself and claiming that "god told me to do it its ok".
I can turn the argument on its head and say that the soldiers supposedly gassing and killing jews were just doing what they were told to. They had no moral responsibility to not gas and kill jews.
Zycline b was not a gas, its a slow time release pellet and not efficient in killing ppl. Not to mention expensive, why not put them all in an air tight room and let them die from lack of oxygen or put an engine exhaust in there ? Germans known to be efficient and zyclone b was not a good way to kill ppl. No one knew of the Holocaust till after the war…lol…every claimed gad chamber was on the soveit side of the iron curtain …ironic? Roosevelt does right before allied troops get to berlin..patton told to stand down…patton dies in mysterious keep crash a a month latet….think think think friens. The media is a weapon..,connect the dots
Oh, nice. So you're not actually going to discuss the morality. You basically just attempted to change the subject and turn it into a different debate, if Christianity (or all religion) is real.
Thats not subject. The subject is the morality of chopping of the genitals of babies against their will, fresh out of the womb. Is it right or wrong to chop off parts of people when they have not agreed to such an action? Is it right or wrong to do that at all? So far all you have done is say that its not your problem because you think god told you its ok so that absolves you of any responsibility. But I guess that answers the question anyways.
You're not going to even consider if that action is actually right or wrong because theres no way in hell if anyone thinks about it for 3 seconds you come out with the response "yeah, that sounds like a good thing to do, god wants me to chop off baby penis. Why? fuck if I know but cut that sucker off. Might as well suck the blood out of it too, dont wanna waste that!"
I'll give you credit though, you've got some pretty good pilpul skills there! At first I thought you were just a larp but it looks like I've got a real jew here. Rather than argue about the subject, you use the exact same debate tactics Hitler himself described.
The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day.
Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck.
I didn't know what to be more amazed at: the agility of their tongues or their virtuosity at lying.
Gradually I began to hate them.
And I'm not denying there were gas chambers either. Nice try again. I'm denying they were used for, again, the gassing and killing of jews. See the link I posted the first time to see how little evidence (literally none) there is for gas chambers that kill people.
I was disputing the difference between a commandment from G-d and an order from a human source.
Now if you want to get to understanding the reason for the commandment, we are free to speculate onto that. Give me a second on that, I will get back to it in just a moment.
You are correct, I have little interest in debating the gas chambers. I am happy to discuss the Halacha and ethics of Torah, G-d, and the commandments.
First -- why does it make a difference between if the commandment came from G-d versus man? The main distinction is that G-d is an unimpeachable source. One that cannot be replaced or vetoed by a human authority.
That is why Thomas Jefferson begins the Declaration of Independence with "Men are established by their CREATOR (i.e. G-d) with certain inalienable rights, among which (not solely) life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
If Jefferson said "Governments grant inalienable rights, among which are XYZ" then a later government can say: "Yes, we gave you those rights. Now we're taking them away."
You cannot impeach G-d, so you cannot deny the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. That's why G-d is the source of those rights.
If we drop G-d to the level of "Well, what makes sense to YOU?" Some commandments make sense to us, others do not. I HOPE most people don't agonize over "thou shalt not murder." Some you might need to think hard about, like "Why observe the Sabbath?" And some you have to think extra hard about. "Why no clothing with mixed linen?"
As for circumcision...
We can go with the standard health benefits. (Prevents the foreskin from being infected). And we can say you do it to a child due to it being less painful to an 8 day old infant than a 70 year old man.
As for the why -- here is one fable as to why.
A Roman asked Rabbi Akiva which was greater: the works of G-d or the works of man.
He expected Akiva to say "The works of G-d." The Roman would then counter with: "Then why alter G-d's creation with circumcision?"
But to his surprise, Akiva says: "The works of man."
"How?" asks the Roman.
Rabbi Akiva takes the Roman to the marketplace. He buys a shaft of wheat and a cake. He asks the Roman which he would rather eat. The Roman admits he'd prefer the cake. Akiva ends with: "G-d creates the raw materials. Man uses these materials to perfect the world G-d has made."
Further reasons: The circumcision is a sign of G-d's covenant between man and his reproductive organ. This is part of maintaining the covenant throughout the generations. (All of time).
Which echoes into your other question. "Why do it before the child has a chance to choose?" Well, I don't know if you have kids. But I would like my kids to carry on the values and culture that I have. Judaism, conservatism, love of freedom, and so on.
There's a liberal conceit of "Let the kid grow up and decide for himself if he wants to be a Jew or a Christian or an Atheist, if he wants to be a Democrat or a Republican, if he wants to be gay or straight." And now, we're even up to: "If he wants to be a boy or a girl."
It's this idea that a child should be completely independent of his parents' beliefs, culture, and tradition.
Do you think that's a good idea? To think of your child as completely rootless, blowing with the wind of mainstream culture, to be influenced by the teacher, the television, the school yard?
I don't. I want to be able to guide my child in my culture. I want to continue my family another generation after mine, not just think of my children as wild weeds to grow wherever they attach.
Sure, I'm Jewish, and I want my kids to be as well.
If I was Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Irish, African, or any other nationality, I would (I hope) have the same aspiration. It's universal to want you children to continue carrying your culture, and I see nothing wrong with that.
I am sorry. The holocaust was real. Too many eyewitnesses to it. Just as there were to the voter fraud (which they also try to deny)
Circumcision is part of the covenant between Abraham and G-d.
If the creator of the universe commands it, it is moral.
Asking if it is immoral -- might as well be the serpent asking Eve if it's really wrong to eat the forbidden fruit.
This is why I specified the gassing and killing of jews. I'm not denying they got sent to camps in an attempt to purge germany of them. I'm denying that they were gassed and killed. That was a lie. See the link I posted for more detail.
If you think the first thing "God" commands you to do to babies fresh out of the womb is chop off part of their genitals against their will, thats not god you're worshipping buddy, its satan calling himself god.
Just because something claiming itself to be god tells you to do something doesn't make the thing right or wrong. You're basically just taking the personal responsibility for your actions off of yourself and claiming that "god told me to do it its ok".
I can turn the argument on its head and say that the soldiers supposedly gassing and killing jews were just doing what they were told to. They had no moral responsibility to not gas and kill jews.
Zycline b was not a gas, its a slow time release pellet and not efficient in killing ppl. Not to mention expensive, why not put them all in an air tight room and let them die from lack of oxygen or put an engine exhaust in there ? Germans known to be efficient and zyclone b was not a good way to kill ppl. No one knew of the Holocaust till after the war…lol…every claimed gad chamber was on the soveit side of the iron curtain …ironic? Roosevelt does right before allied troops get to berlin..patton told to stand down…patton dies in mysterious keep crash a a month latet….think think think friens. The media is a weapon..,connect the dots
Look, I'm not interested in people denying he gas chambers. Just not. Too well established.
Your argument at the end doesn't work. The soldiers were commanded by men. Abraham was commanded by G-d.
If the G-d of Torah is false, then by extension, so is Christianity.
Oh, nice. So you're not actually going to discuss the morality. You basically just attempted to change the subject and turn it into a different debate, if Christianity (or all religion) is real.
Thats not subject. The subject is the morality of chopping of the genitals of babies against their will, fresh out of the womb. Is it right or wrong to chop off parts of people when they have not agreed to such an action? Is it right or wrong to do that at all? So far all you have done is say that its not your problem because you think god told you its ok so that absolves you of any responsibility. But I guess that answers the question anyways.
You're not going to even consider if that action is actually right or wrong because theres no way in hell if anyone thinks about it for 3 seconds you come out with the response "yeah, that sounds like a good thing to do, god wants me to chop off baby penis. Why? fuck if I know but cut that sucker off. Might as well suck the blood out of it too, dont wanna waste that!"
I'll give you credit though, you've got some pretty good pilpul skills there! At first I thought you were just a larp but it looks like I've got a real jew here. Rather than argue about the subject, you use the exact same debate tactics Hitler himself described.
And I'm not denying there were gas chambers either. Nice try again. I'm denying they were used for, again, the gassing and killing of jews. See the link I posted the first time to see how little evidence (literally none) there is for gas chambers that kill people.
I was disputing the difference between a commandment from G-d and an order from a human source.
Now if you want to get to understanding the reason for the commandment, we are free to speculate onto that. Give me a second on that, I will get back to it in just a moment.
You are correct, I have little interest in debating the gas chambers. I am happy to discuss the Halacha and ethics of Torah, G-d, and the commandments.
First -- why does it make a difference between if the commandment came from G-d versus man? The main distinction is that G-d is an unimpeachable source. One that cannot be replaced or vetoed by a human authority.
That is why Thomas Jefferson begins the Declaration of Independence with "Men are established by their CREATOR (i.e. G-d) with certain inalienable rights, among which (not solely) life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
If Jefferson said "Governments grant inalienable rights, among which are XYZ" then a later government can say: "Yes, we gave you those rights. Now we're taking them away."
You cannot impeach G-d, so you cannot deny the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. That's why G-d is the source of those rights.
If we drop G-d to the level of "Well, what makes sense to YOU?" Some commandments make sense to us, others do not. I HOPE most people don't agonize over "thou shalt not murder." Some you might need to think hard about, like "Why observe the Sabbath?" And some you have to think extra hard about. "Why no clothing with mixed linen?"
As for circumcision...
We can go with the standard health benefits. (Prevents the foreskin from being infected). And we can say you do it to a child due to it being less painful to an 8 day old infant than a 70 year old man.
As for the why -- here is one fable as to why.
A Roman asked Rabbi Akiva which was greater: the works of G-d or the works of man.
He expected Akiva to say "The works of G-d." The Roman would then counter with: "Then why alter G-d's creation with circumcision?"
But to his surprise, Akiva says: "The works of man."
"How?" asks the Roman.
Rabbi Akiva takes the Roman to the marketplace. He buys a shaft of wheat and a cake. He asks the Roman which he would rather eat. The Roman admits he'd prefer the cake. Akiva ends with: "G-d creates the raw materials. Man uses these materials to perfect the world G-d has made."
Further reasons: The circumcision is a sign of G-d's covenant between man and his reproductive organ. This is part of maintaining the covenant throughout the generations. (All of time).
Which echoes into your other question. "Why do it before the child has a chance to choose?" Well, I don't know if you have kids. But I would like my kids to carry on the values and culture that I have. Judaism, conservatism, love of freedom, and so on.
There's a liberal conceit of "Let the kid grow up and decide for himself if he wants to be a Jew or a Christian or an Atheist, if he wants to be a Democrat or a Republican, if he wants to be gay or straight." And now, we're even up to: "If he wants to be a boy or a girl."
It's this idea that a child should be completely independent of his parents' beliefs, culture, and tradition.
Do you think that's a good idea? To think of your child as completely rootless, blowing with the wind of mainstream culture, to be influenced by the teacher, the television, the school yard?
I don't. I want to be able to guide my child in my culture. I want to continue my family another generation after mine, not just think of my children as wild weeds to grow wherever they attach.
Sure, I'm Jewish, and I want my kids to be as well.
If I was Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Irish, African, or any other nationality, I would (I hope) have the same aspiration. It's universal to want you children to continue carrying your culture, and I see nothing wrong with that.
Man you people sure are obsessed with children's genetalia. You really think God would command such a thing? Satanic fuck.
I didn't bring it up. Some other asshole did.
Doesn't matter who brought it up. It matters who supports it. Sick fuck.
Go suck a dick with smegma on it then.