One thing you have in common with "pope" Francis" is you both condemn proseletysm. You both dislike the idea there is one true faith and a one true Church.
Q serves to reveal natural truth so that people can wake up and see reality for what it is and live accordingly.
God established a Church, His bride, to teach the divinely revealed supernatural truths necessary for our salvation. He entrusted the deposit of faith to his apostles and their successors.
It is absurd to turn away from Jesus and the apostles because of Judas, just as it is absurd to believe we can have Jesus but reject His Bride.
It is a historical fact that protestantism originated with people blindly following priests and bishops who turned away from the traditional teachings and practices of the Church.
That same apostasy is happening on a grand level (great apostasy perhaps) formally beginning in the 1960's, with Vatican II & the New Order Mass (brainchild of Masons & protestants) for the New World Order.. And now, most "Catholics" are, like protestants, offended by the faith of our fathers. They have blindly drifted into apostacy without knowing it, just as the protestants did the last 500 years.
The farther you dive into the war on Christianity, the more you will find it's a war on Catholicism. Trump seems to see that as well
I think this conversation is over until you address my first issue with the Catholic church.
You called the pre-"information age" Catholic church infallible.
I mentioned indulgences. You ignored it.
If you cannot defend indulgences, then you cannot defend the Catholic church. Unless you say that, when the Catholic church sold indulgences, it made a mistake (even though it was pre-"information age" era).
Taking God's Church, slapping a trademark on it and banning all others from participation unless they also believe x, y and z (excommunication, indulgences, purgatory, elevating mere humans to the status of angelic saints and praying to them instead of to Jesus, etc. etc. etc.) sounds exactly like something Satan would do.
Sorry this is so long, but I lack the virtue to make it short. In addressing the Church in general, the bride of Christ, for all eternity, has no "spot or wrinkle or any such thing.."(Eph-5:27) It is the body of Christ, and like Christ, subjects itself to sinful man. It is a divine institition that is often (especially today) in the hands of sinners, just as Christ was, but specially in his passion. He was no less perfect during the passion, just as the Church founded by Christ, (which has since the beginning been known as the Catholic Church), will never be imperfect. Yet it is clearly in the hands of some of the most despicable human beings, just as Christ was. Yet "even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." (Athenasius- whom we have to thank that we are not all Arian, the Jahovas witnesses of the 5th century). It is tradition that is being crucified, both secular but especially within the Church.
Progressivism, liberalism, and communism, are all ideals that wage war on traditional Christianity, which, in it's most traditional form is Catholic. Conservatives get their name from trying to conserve these traditional values, but we have fallen so far that conservatives today are fighting to conserve the liberal ideals of yesterday. The same is true in the Christian world. Protestants laid the foundation for liberal ideology by rejecting traditional Christianity.
That being said, the tradition of indulgences stems back to the early church. The principles are articulated by St Paul when he said, "...whereof, I, Paul, am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church. (Col-1:23-24) Paul was explicitly offering his sufferings to the members of the Church. Why would he do that if it wasn't necessary? It is true, that Christ's suffering and death is sufficient for our salvation. The sacrifice of God the Son to God the Father on behalf of the Church, is of infinite value. It wipes away a stain we could never remove by our own merits. However, God is perfectly just. Every evil we do in this life must be made right. If we steal a car, it is not enough that we repent, we must also return the car. So, what happens if we repent, but die before returning the car? What happens if we die while being guilty of "lesser sins" or having not repaired all the works of injustice we committed throughout our life? "He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Mat-5:19-20) Heaven is a place where we see God as He Is. We see justice in it's entirety and there is no room for injustice or vice of any kind. No one with a sense of justice would believe that a mass murderer who repents right before dying would have a perfectly just soul without undergoing any sort of suffering in reperation for the evils he committed. On the other hand, God's sacrifice was infinite in value, there is no repent sinner too evil for Him to forgive. That is why St Paul said, "Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is... If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE. (1-Cor-3:13,15) In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee finds the bodies of soldiers who died wearing superstitious amulets during one of the Lord’s battles. Judah and his men “turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out” (2 Macc. 12:42). Judah also “took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this . . . HE MADE ATONEMENT FOR THE DEAD, that they might be delivered from their sin” (2 Macc. 12:43, 46). This idea that man must be made just in this life or the next did not originate with the later Catholic Church. The Church is the body of Christ, it is the storehouse of Justice and we can only make ourselves just by uniting ourselves with Christ in His mystical Body, the Church. It is by the grace of God that St Paul could endure such suffering in order to contribute to the justice of the Church. It is the great martyrdoms of the past and the heroic virtue exemplified by the Christians of the past that we celebrate. Yet, their virtue came only by the grace of God, just as St Paul articulated that it was God working in Him. These men and women, by the grace of God, conquered sin, and the temptations of the devil, the world, and flesh. Who do you think would want to suppress their stories? Who do you think would want to tear down their legends? Who, today, tears down the statues of America's founding fathers? Or denigrates the stories of the men and women who showed heroic virtue in making our society good? No, my friend, it is no God's work to tear down the statues of Christians who, by the grace of God, lived heroicly virtuous lives... We do not worship the saints as though they are God, we ask them to pray for us so we can be united to God as they are? Do you ask a Satanist to pray for you, or someone you think is holy? Or has a good relationship with Christ? The selling of indulgences and worshipping saints are formally condemned by the Church. Those, like all lies, are perversions of the truth. We venerate saints as America venerates good men. We ask for their prayers because they are united to the One we want to be united with. We beg to God to receive the grace we need to become holy (sanctus, Sanctified, saints) ourselves. And if our time is cut short and we cannot repair all the damage we have done, we ask God to look, not on our sins, but on the faith and good works of the Church, of the saints, tapping into the storehouse of grace, (grati, gratuitous gift) of God, whom He worked through the church and the saints, so that we can be justified to enter the gates of Heaven. That, my friend, is why we need the Church, and all it has merited through Christ.
Sorry this is so long, but I lack the virtue to make it short.
TLDR
In addressing the Church in general
Would you go to a forum on knitting and start posting about drag racing?
GA isn't Sunday school. This isn't the place to stand up on a soapbox and preach.
Do you walk up to men in a public bathroom and start instructing them on Greek words in the New Testament?
If the great awakening will only happen if the general public is converted to your particular flavor of looking-down-your-nose while preaching people's wrongdoings (but simultaneously tolerating your gay sex references), then we're all doomed.
You gave me a lot to address, and I addressed most of it. If this forum is about seeking the truth, I'm happy to address it on a mere natural level. However, I won't waste my time with superficial bathroom talk that gets no one anywhere. You took this discussion to the supernatural level by addressing supernatural things like the church. I only gave a glimpse into how deep the truth actually goes. And how far back liberalism has gone to try to destroy it. However, what seems to piss off liberals the most is the truth, based on your last comment, it seems you have that in common with them as well.
One thing you have in common with "pope" Francis" is you both condemn proseletysm. You both dislike the idea there is one true faith and a one true Church. Q serves to reveal natural truth so that people can wake up and see reality for what it is and live accordingly. God established a Church, His bride, to teach the divinely revealed supernatural truths necessary for our salvation. He entrusted the deposit of faith to his apostles and their successors. It is absurd to turn away from Jesus and the apostles because of Judas, just as it is absurd to believe we can have Jesus but reject His Bride. It is a historical fact that protestantism originated with people blindly following priests and bishops who turned away from the traditional teachings and practices of the Church. That same apostasy is happening on a grand level (great apostasy perhaps) formally beginning in the 1960's, with Vatican II & the New Order Mass (brainchild of Masons & protestants) for the New World Order.. And now, most "Catholics" are, like protestants, offended by the faith of our fathers. They have blindly drifted into apostacy without knowing it, just as the protestants did the last 500 years. The farther you dive into the war on Christianity, the more you will find it's a war on Catholicism. Trump seems to see that as well
I think this conversation is over until you address my first issue with the Catholic church.
You called the pre-"information age" Catholic church infallible.
I mentioned indulgences. You ignored it.
If you cannot defend indulgences, then you cannot defend the Catholic church. Unless you say that, when the Catholic church sold indulgences, it made a mistake (even though it was pre-"information age" era).
Taking God's Church, slapping a trademark on it and banning all others from participation unless they also believe x, y and z (excommunication, indulgences, purgatory, elevating mere humans to the status of angelic saints and praying to them instead of to Jesus, etc. etc. etc.) sounds exactly like something Satan would do.
Sorry this is so long, but I lack the virtue to make it short. In addressing the Church in general, the bride of Christ, for all eternity, has no "spot or wrinkle or any such thing.."(Eph-5:27) It is the body of Christ, and like Christ, subjects itself to sinful man. It is a divine institition that is often (especially today) in the hands of sinners, just as Christ was, but specially in his passion. He was no less perfect during the passion, just as the Church founded by Christ, (which has since the beginning been known as the Catholic Church), will never be imperfect. Yet it is clearly in the hands of some of the most despicable human beings, just as Christ was. Yet "even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." (Athenasius- whom we have to thank that we are not all Arian, the Jahovas witnesses of the 5th century). It is tradition that is being crucified, both secular but especially within the Church. Progressivism, liberalism, and communism, are all ideals that wage war on traditional Christianity, which, in it's most traditional form is Catholic. Conservatives get their name from trying to conserve these traditional values, but we have fallen so far that conservatives today are fighting to conserve the liberal ideals of yesterday. The same is true in the Christian world. Protestants laid the foundation for liberal ideology by rejecting traditional Christianity. That being said, the tradition of indulgences stems back to the early church. The principles are articulated by St Paul when he said, "...whereof, I, Paul, am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church. (Col-1:23-24) Paul was explicitly offering his sufferings to the members of the Church. Why would he do that if it wasn't necessary? It is true, that Christ's suffering and death is sufficient for our salvation. The sacrifice of God the Son to God the Father on behalf of the Church, is of infinite value. It wipes away a stain we could never remove by our own merits. However, God is perfectly just. Every evil we do in this life must be made right. If we steal a car, it is not enough that we repent, we must also return the car. So, what happens if we repent, but die before returning the car? What happens if we die while being guilty of "lesser sins" or having not repaired all the works of injustice we committed throughout our life? "He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Mat-5:19-20) Heaven is a place where we see God as He Is. We see justice in it's entirety and there is no room for injustice or vice of any kind. No one with a sense of justice would believe that a mass murderer who repents right before dying would have a perfectly just soul without undergoing any sort of suffering in reperation for the evils he committed. On the other hand, God's sacrifice was infinite in value, there is no repent sinner too evil for Him to forgive. That is why St Paul said, "Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is... If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE. (1-Cor-3:13,15) In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee finds the bodies of soldiers who died wearing superstitious amulets during one of the Lord’s battles. Judah and his men “turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out” (2 Macc. 12:42). Judah also “took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this . . . HE MADE ATONEMENT FOR THE DEAD, that they might be delivered from their sin” (2 Macc. 12:43, 46). This idea that man must be made just in this life or the next did not originate with the later Catholic Church. The Church is the body of Christ, it is the storehouse of Justice and we can only make ourselves just by uniting ourselves with Christ in His mystical Body, the Church. It is by the grace of God that St Paul could endure such suffering in order to contribute to the justice of the Church. It is the great martyrdoms of the past and the heroic virtue exemplified by the Christians of the past that we celebrate. Yet, their virtue came only by the grace of God, just as St Paul articulated that it was God working in Him. These men and women, by the grace of God, conquered sin, and the temptations of the devil, the world, and flesh. Who do you think would want to suppress their stories? Who do you think would want to tear down their legends? Who, today, tears down the statues of America's founding fathers? Or denigrates the stories of the men and women who showed heroic virtue in making our society good? No, my friend, it is no God's work to tear down the statues of Christians who, by the grace of God, lived heroicly virtuous lives... We do not worship the saints as though they are God, we ask them to pray for us so we can be united to God as they are? Do you ask a Satanist to pray for you, or someone you think is holy? Or has a good relationship with Christ? The selling of indulgences and worshipping saints are formally condemned by the Church. Those, like all lies, are perversions of the truth. We venerate saints as America venerates good men. We ask for their prayers because they are united to the One we want to be united with. We beg to God to receive the grace we need to become holy (sanctus, Sanctified, saints) ourselves. And if our time is cut short and we cannot repair all the damage we have done, we ask God to look, not on our sins, but on the faith and good works of the Church, of the saints, tapping into the storehouse of grace, (grati, gratuitous gift) of God, whom He worked through the church and the saints, so that we can be justified to enter the gates of Heaven. That, my friend, is why we need the Church, and all it has merited through Christ.
TLDR
Would you go to a forum on knitting and start posting about drag racing?
GA isn't Sunday school. This isn't the place to stand up on a soapbox and preach.
Do you walk up to men in a public bathroom and start instructing them on Greek words in the New Testament?
If the great awakening will only happen if the general public is converted to your particular flavor of looking-down-your-nose while preaching people's wrongdoings (but simultaneously tolerating your gay sex references), then we're all doomed.
You gave me a lot to address, and I addressed most of it. If this forum is about seeking the truth, I'm happy to address it on a mere natural level. However, I won't waste my time with superficial bathroom talk that gets no one anywhere. You took this discussion to the supernatural level by addressing supernatural things like the church. I only gave a glimpse into how deep the truth actually goes. And how far back liberalism has gone to try to destroy it. However, what seems to piss off liberals the most is the truth, based on your last comment, it seems you have that in common with them as well.