c/o Inner City Press
1408GMT
[Note: These are the lawyers' arguments before the jury comes in]
Judge Nathan: If what the defense bring in is impeachment [of the Witness] material, it's not a Rule 16 issue.
AUSA Rohrbach: It should have been disclosed; it is about a collateral matter.
AUSA: The witness couldn't even recognize the photo, & it wasn't impeachment of what she said on the stand.
Judge Nathan: What is the US' understanding of when the witness lived in the address in the [FBI] 302?
AUSA Alison Moe: At 14 she was living in a pool house
Maxwell's lawyer: In her application to Interlochen [music school] she listed the address that he showed her yesterday.
Maxwell's lawyer Laura Menninger: She already said on the record that she lived in the same place after she met Epstein until she moved to NY
Judge Nathan: Is there anything we can discuss at [non public] sidebar, before the jury comes in?
AUSA: Some issues we can only do when they come up.
Judge Nathan: OK, then I'm going to step down for a few minutes.
Clerk: All rise!
1435GMT
Judge Nathan: The jury is ready.
AUSA: We do have one issue to raise at sidebar.
Judge Nathan: Let's see if we can get to the break without. Before the defense shows the jury the [confidential] binder, raise it here.
Assistant US Attorney: We have an objection to tabloid articles from the Internet being introduced as evidence.
Judge Nathan: You have a general Internet objection?
AUSA: No, we'll raise them one by one.
Judge Nathan: Let's bring out the jury.
Clerk: All rise!
Jury enters
Maxwell's lawyer Menninger: Did you turn 17 in your final year at Interlochen [art/music school]?
Pseudonymous witness "Jane" - No, I was 16.
Menninger: Jurors, pick up the smaller binder under your chairs and turn to J-3.
Menninger: And your application said you came from a "long and loving family," right?
Jane: That's what it says.
Menninger: Do you recognize the document?
Jane: I do not recognize it per se. But I see my signature.
Menninger: It's your application to Interlochen
Menninger: When you spoke to your younger brother, you didn't mention there was a woman, correct?
Jane: I don't think so.
Menninger: And you told a news source that you were approached by Ghislaine, no mention of Ghislaine, correct?
Jane: I don't remember that.
Menninger: When you got to Epstein's house with your mother - your house was in West Palm Beach, right?
Jane: No, it was in Palm Beach -
Menninger: You didn't cross any state lines, did you?
Jane: No I didn't. There were only the 3 of us having tea.
Menninger: Have you ever spoken with your sisters about your boyfriends?
Jane: I didn't have any boyfriends...
Assistant US Attorney: Can we have a brief sidebar about this?
1521GMT
Sidebar
1534GMT
Maxwell's lawyer Menninger: Look at the last line in the top paragraph. You told the agents that Epstein would decide where everyone sat --
AUSA: Objection! She should only ask, Does it refresh your recollection.
Judge Nathan: Go ahead and ask.
Menninger: Does it refresh your recollection?
Jane: Yes.
Menninger: And there was nothing sexual in the theater.
Jane: Right
Menninger: Yesterday, it said it was shortly after the pool house that you had this incident with Epstein and Ghislaine, right?
AUSA: Objection as to form.
Judge Nathan: Specify what you're talking about.
AUSA: Objection.
Menninger: This is foundational.
Menninger: You told the government you do not have a specific memory of your first time with Ghislaine -
AUSA: Objection!
Menninger: You have come up with the memory in the last two years?
Jane: I don't believe I have come up with memory, no.
Jane: It is not typed up right on this form.
Maxwell's lawyer Menninger: Another typo by the government.
AUSA: Objection!
Menninger: You told the government Ghislaine never used sex toys or a vibrator on you, correct?
Jane: Correct.
Menninger went on to ask Jane if Ghislaine ever saw her perform oral sex on Epstein (no), hand job (no), intercourse (no).
Menninger: Look at 39-008 at Page 5, does this refresh your recollection?
Jane: No.
1555GMT
Menninger: You said Ghislaine never saw you perform oral sex on Epstein.
Jane: I don't recall.
Menninger: Look at the document.
Judge Nathan: Let's take a break.
Recess
1633GMT
Maxwell's lawyer Menninger: You testified yesterday your first has sex with Epstein in his pool house in Florida. But you told the government it was in New York.
Jane: Those are not my notes. I did not write that down and it was not recorded.
Menninger: You told them you only remembered one incident in NY when Ghislaine was present.
Jane: I don't recall.
Menninger: Look at 3509-003. Hasn't your story changed?
Jane: I didn't understand the question.
Menninger: You told the government you flew to NY with Epstein & Ghislaine to see The Lion King.
Jane: I said that but I was incorrect in my timeline. I was 14.
Menninger: You were a student of theater and the arts at the time, correct?
AUSA: Objection as to form.
1652GMT
Judge Nathan called another break, saying that Jane needed a drink of water.
Now she's back on the stand.
Menninger: Let's go to your conversation in Feb 2020, about the Lion King.
AUSA: No objection
Menninger: I know Ms. Moe would like to come and do this for me
AUSA Moe: I object to that.
Menninger: But the Lion King on Broadway didn't start until you were 17 years old. Did the government or Mr. Glassman suggest to you that you might have meant the Lion King movie?
AUSA: Objection!
Menninger: So you recall going to the New Mexico range, a giant huge home, correct?
Jane: Like all the homes.
Menninger: And that Jeffrey Epstein's brother went with you, correct?
Jane: I don't recall.
Menninger: You weren't asked to have sex with any of Epstein's friends, were you?
Jane: No.
Menninger: Did Epstein introduce you to people in the arts?
Jane: Not really.
Menninger: To the dean of Interlochen at a cocktail party?
Jane: I don't recall.
Menninger: In 3509-001, you said you met Donald Trump at Mar-a-Lago, before the pool house incident.
Jane: I don't recall.
Menninger: You said Epstein took you in a dark green car to Mar-A-Lago to meet Donald Trump?
AUSA: Asked and answered and also misleading.
Menninger: You also had some recollections about flying on the private plane with Epstein, right?
Jane: Yes.
Menninger: You said you were asked your weight when you got on the plane, correct?
Jane: Yes.
Menninger: In 2019 before Epstein was arrested you were contacted by the government, right?
Jane: Yes.
Menninger: But you said you were not interested in getting involved.
Jane: Right.
Menninger: Then you hired Mr Glassman, a personal injury lawyer with ads-
AUSA: Objection.
Menninger: Did you see his ads, touting his big verdicts?
Jane: He's a friend of a friend.
Menninger: Is this your contingent fee agreement?
Jane: Yes.
Menninger: You've talked to your ex-boyfriend Matt, right?
Jane: Right.
[Programming note: It seems "Matt" will be the next witness. Judge Nathan has said there is some issue with the jurors' delivered lunches. So this may go a while.]
Menninger: When you were 15 did you take a trip to Italy for a singing competition?
Jane: I may have. I don't remember. I was 15.
Menninger: And at 16, you traveled for a sibling?
Jane: Maybe.
1751GMT
Menninger: And you were in a beauty pageant sponsored by Donald Trump?
Jane: Yes.
Menninger: Do you recall crying that Jeffrey Epstein only gave you $2000 for a dress?
Jane: No.
Menninger: You were on a reality TV show with Matt, right?
Jane: Yes.
Menninger: And there was tension and you cried?
Jane: Reality shows are not really reality.
Menninger: You claimed you were putting a roof over your family's head?
Jane: I don't know if I used those words.
Q: You told that to Matt.
A: They were living in my house.
Menninger: And you demanded money from Ghislaine Maxwell?
Jane: I have a lawyer.
Menninger: And you sought money from the Epstein Compensation Fund - look at Exhibit J-18, at 6. You were offered how much?
Jane: $5 million.
1819GMT
Judge Nathan: We'll break for lunch, jurors. I hope all of your lunches are back there now.
Lunch Recess
1933GMT
Menninger: So you went to a specialized entertainment school, right?
Menninger: And since then you've played roles like cancer patient?
Jane: Yes.
Menninger: Prostitute?
Jane: No.
Menninger: You can cry on command?
Menninger: Your accusations in this case include that you were 14 when you were abused, right?
Jane: Yes.
Menninger: But you first told the government you were 13, right?
Jane: I might have said 13 going on 14. It's a small technicality.
[Note: on "prostitute," Jane said "Not my favorite role."]
Menninger: You talk about the Lion King and say you were 14 - but it only came out when you were 17, right? And you said you were 15 when you met Mike Wallace, at his 80th birthday party, right?
Jane: I don't know how old I was.
Menninger: You don't know when his birthday is? Look at J-33, does it refresh your recollection?
AUSA: Objection.
Judge Nathan: Sustained. No basis for refreshing.
Menninger: In your civil case you got interrogatories, do you know what those are?
Jane: No.
Menninger: So your lawyer answered for you under your oath and you didn't know?
Jane: I don't know.
Cross examination of Jane peters out, with a final exhibit admitted. Unclear how press and public will get it.
Now re-direct.
AUSA: Did any of us prosecutors ever tell you what to say at this trial?
Jane: No.
AUSA: You were asked about notes of meetings with the US. Did you speak about everything all at once?
Jane: No. It was too difficult, emotionally, on every level.
AUSA: Then there were fewer of us in the room. Do you know why?
Jane: To make me more comfortable.
AUSA: Why did you speak to the tabloid reporter?
Jane: He basically blackmailed me. He said he would publish unredacted documents.
Judge Nathan: This is not for the truth of the matter asserted, but impact on the listener.
AUSA: Did you make an agreement with the reporter?
Jane: Yes. I'd talk about meeting Jeffrey Epstein, the reporter would keep my name out of it. I was working on a TV show.
AUSA: Do you know the difference between acting on television and testifying in court?
Jane: Yes. This is real. I am seeking closure. I have been running from this my entire life. I want to help in whatever way I can. And maybe find some healing.
[By the end, Jane is sobbing.]
AUSA: Do you have any financial interest in this trial?
Jane: No.
AUSA: Nothing further.
2028GMT
Judge Nathan: Jane, you may step down. And we'll take a break. Jurors, your snacks are here.
Clerk: All rise!
Recess
2109GMT
AUSA Moe: How do you know Jane?
Matt: She's my ex-girlfriend. From 2006 to 2014.
AUSA: Did you live together?
Matt: Yes. From 2007 to 2014.
AUSA: Are you still friends?
Matt: Yes. And we work on the same TV show.
AUSA: What did Jane tell you about her home life?
Maxwell's lawyer: Objection.
Judge Nathan: Any foundation?
Maxwell's lawyer: It's hearsay.
Sidebar
[CONTINUED IN COMMENT
[Extra Details c/o Adam Klasfeld]
Menninger tries to undermine "Jane's" account of her difficult family life through school records at Interlochen, like an application describing her "loving family."
Yesterday, "Jane" testified that her mother instructed her not to discuss her feelings and family. Menninger pivots to "Jane's" first meeting with Epstein and Maxwell in 1994, at the Interlochen arts academy.
The defense attorney says that she has given different accounts of the meeting. An ongoing defense strategy is undermining the women's memories of decades-old events. Menninger asks if "Jane" remembered testimony being by herself at Jeffrey Epstein's house in Palm Beach. "Jane" agrees.
The attorney says that she told the government something different and begins reading a document — drawing a prosecution objection. Menninger says that she told the government that she was with her mother and brothers in the beginning.
"Jane" says she doesn't remember that. "Jane," as the defense attorney tries to undermine her memory: "Memory's not linear."
Q: The dinner you had at your house was prior to any abuse.
A: That's not true.
Menninger tries to read from a document, sparking an objection from the government. "Your honor," the prosecutor says, she objects to Menninger "testifying."
Sidebar
Menninger says "Jane" does not recall whether Maxwell ever touched her. "That's not true," "Jane" says. Menninger asks whether she told the government she could not recall that. "I don't recall."
Menninger asks whether she told the government Maxwell never watched her perform oral sex on Epstein. "That's correct," "Jane" says. Same answer when asked to confirm she told the government Maxwell never used sex toys or a vibrator on her.
Recess
Menninger pivots to the first time "Jane" says Epstein abused her. She testified that's when Epstein masturbated on her in the Palm Beach pool house. The lawyer says she told the government in 2019 that it was in New York. Jane: "That is not correct"
Menninger is confronting her with notes from unrecorded interviews with the government. "Jane" has said repeatedly during cross-ex that the notes were inaccurate. "This is just someone jotting down notes," she said.
There's a lot of dispute about whether the notes suggest "Jane" told the government she went to see the "Lion King" on Broadway with Maxwell in New York;
if so, when they purportedly saw it;
and whether "Jane's" purported chronology conflicted with its opening date.
Q: You don't recall any abuse happening when you first came to New Mexico, correct?
A: That is not correct.
Under the rules of evidence, these notes can be shown to the witness to refresh her recollection because they cannot be entered as exhibits as verbatim transcripts (which they are not). Menninger is systematically contrasting "Jane's" testimony what these records reflect.
"Jane" says she was never asked to recruit other girls or directed to have sex with any of Epstein's associates.
Q: "Mr. Epstein introduced you to Donald Trump, correct?"
She says yes.
Pressed by Menninger, "Jane" agrees that she said Epstein drove her to Mar-a-Lago in a dark green car when she was 14. This line of questioning is not explored much further. Menninger pivots to unrelated allegations of group sexualized massages.
Q: You remember Prince Andrew being on a flight with you?
Yes.
Lunch Recess
Cross-examination resumes:
Q: You said that you were raised in a household where you'd get in trouble if you said something?
"Jane" asked for clarification about "something."
Q: Something personal.
She replies yes. Menninger asks if she recalled telling her mother about a teacher pulling her hair. "Jane" answers yes.
Asked if she recalled her mother filing a lawsuit against the teacher, "Jane" says she didn't know that. Showing her papers, Menninger asked if they refresh her recollection that her mother sued her teacher.
"No, I had no idea my mother did this," responds "Jane." "Jane" says that she met Mike Wallace with Jeffrey Epstein in New York. Menninger says that "Jane" said that was at Mike Wallace's 80th birthday party?
"Jane" agrees. There are no allegations made about Wallace, either, except a suggestion made by the defense attorney that the date doesn't match up with the account. Earlier in cross-ex—
Q: You consider yourself an actor?
A: Yes.
Q: An actor portrays a fictional character?
A: Yes.
[...]
Q: You've been an actor for a very long time?
A: Yes.
Q: “You’re able to cry on command.”
A: “No, not always. That not really how it works.”
Cross-ex ends.
Redirect begins.
Assistant U.S. Attorney Alison Moe to "Jane"—
Q: Have I or any other prosecutor told you what to say on the witness stand?
A: No.
She asks "Jane" what they told her to say.
A: "Just tell the truth."
Asked whether she was able to tell all of the details in her initial meeting with the government, "Jane" emotionally says:
"Because I was standing in a roomful of strangers and telling them the most shameful, deepest secrets that I've been carrying around with me my whole life." She says a reporter "blackmailed" her:
"He said that court documents with my name was unredacted, and the Epstein 'little black book' was out—"
The defense makes a hearsay objection. The prosecutor goes about it a different way, eliciting her to testify that the reporter threatened to expose her if she didn't speak to him. She says she was worried for her career if the information became known. Asked by the prosecutor about the difference is between acting and testifying, she responds:
She responds: Acting on TV is not real, and testifying in court is. Asked why she remembers the first time she says Jeffrey Epstein sexually abused her more clearly than other events, she responds: "Because it's the beginning of when my life would change forever."
Q: How old were you when you first touched Jeffrey Epstein's penis?
A: 14.
The prosecutor asks about defense attacks of the $5 million settlement she got from the Epstein victims fund, of which she received roughly $2.9 million.
Q: Jane, in your own words, can you tell the jury what that money meant to you?
(She cries, wiping her eyes with a tissue)
"I wish I never received that money in the first place because of what happened," she says.
Her testimony concludes.
Recess.
The next witness, "Matt," is also testifying under a pseudonym because he's "Jane's" ex-boyfriend; disclosing his name could identify her.
From her testimony:
Q. While you were together, did you ever tell Matt that you'd been sexually abused by Maxwell and Epstein?
A. Yes.
"All rise."
The jury enters. Judge Nathan says courtroom sketch artists should not precisely draw "Matt's" features, either. (Sketches of "Jane" were obscured at the face.)
He's called to the witness box, is sworn in, and explains the use of the pseudonym. He tells the jury he's been employed on and off as an actor on a TV show for the past 15 years.
Q: "How do you know Jane?"
A: "She's my ex-girlfriend."
She says they were together between 2006 to 2014, approximately — moving into together one year into the relationship. "Matt" testifies that "Jane" initially referred to Epstein as her "godfather," who helped pay her family's bills and was "looking out for her family."
Q: Did there come a time when she told you why Jeffrey Epstein gave her money?
A: Yes.
Asked about what she said, he replies: "She never went into detail. She just said that it wasn't pretty."
Q: Did she ever use the word 'massage'?
Defense: Objection—leading
Nathan: Overruled. I'll allow it.
A: Yes.
Did she ever tell you that there was a woman in the house?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she tell you that the woman in the house made her feel comfortable?
A: Yes.
"Matt," about a comment by "Jane": "She'd just say to me: 'Matt,' the money wasn't fucking free."
Extremely fast testimony. Prosecution wraps shortly. Maxwell's lawyer, Bobbi Sternheim, declines to cross-examine him.
Next witness:
Daniel Besselsen, assistant VP of finance at Interlochen, the arts academy at the center of Jane's story. Besselsen confirms Epstein was a donor to Interlochen, describes the "Jeffrey Epstein Scholarship Lodge." A photo of the lodge is entered into evidence.
Court Adjourned
[Extra info from The Independent]
A British woman called Emmy was named by witness “Jane” as having taken part in “sexualised massages.”
Laura Menninger, Maxwell’s lawyer, asked Jane about Emmy: “You said that Emmy was British and that she was nice and cool. She was involved in the group massages with you? She was involved with the sexual contact?”
“Jane” replied: “Yes.”
She went on to describe four other women who took part in the massages and who she thought were models.
The “tall” and “thin” women were apparently called Sophie, Eva, Michelle and Kelly, the witness recalled.
Daniel Besselsen, the finance executive at the Interlochen Center for the Arts the nonprofit organisation behind the summer camp where witness “Jane” said she first met Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein will give evidence on Thursday.
Mr Besselsen provided records which comprised donor letters confirming Epstein and Maxwell’s relationship to the camp. These included one addressed to Maxwell saying that a lodge had been reserved for the use of Epstein’s in August of 1994.
It is thought that this is where the couple met Jane.
Epstein had funded a two-bedroom lodge, known as the Jeffrey Epstein Scholarship Lodge, at Interlochen in northern Michigan where parents, donors and other guests could stay.
The lodge’s name has now been changed to the Green Lake Lodge.
Great contribution, fren! Thank you!