Ah, you are a thinker that is for sure. Much thought given to the efficacy of presentation to protect oneself.
Having given much thought to the line of discussion we are on and running it through my own filters (as we all have them), I realized that I have never fully embraced the point of it all as forgiveness or even love. I could not articulate my dissent from this philosophy very well until today, but realized that I have been articulating my dissent for years.
That is before we discuss forgiveness, we must be dedicated to Truth. For without leading with truth, our desire to resolve emotional pain can trap us into believing something is "true" to increase our comfort.
So if you will only change because you get something out of it, that is self serving. True contrition is the expression of doing the right thing REGARDLESS of your gain. While exploiting someone's selfishness to change behavior may be pragmatic in the short term, it does not change the heart. God will forgive you -- but a person's forgiveness ought not to be the motivator for change.
Moral adherence and benign intent can go hand in hand. The failure to forgive the sociopath will not keep a person out of heaven. However, holding onto grudges over minor misdeeds reveal a selfishness that will certainly keep you from focusing on the big picture, thus moving you away from God.
Again, I assert, the criminal has no entitlement to human forgiveness -- in fact, his willingness to change because it is the morally correct thing to do regardless of his discomfort provides much greater opportunity for spiritual growth and maturity.
I agree with the prior, but I'm not sure if this is directed at my argument.
The way I see it, is if I were in the place of the sinner in question, and I did have the resolve and intent to repent, I would want the opportunity to prove I am sorry and try to fix what I broke.
It's not necessarily infantilizing the sinner when I think that way.
If God were not to grant mercy for even the most grievous of sinners, then there is no hope for the rest of us. Either God embodies pure Love and Mercy, or he doesn't. By closing yourself off from the nature and Will of God, you close yourself off from your own ability to forgive your self.
Ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father which is in heaven, is perfect. - Matthew 5:48
Ultimately, we are called to forgive because we wish to be forgiven.
Perfection is achieved when one forgives as God does, with the fervor of a parent forgiving their child no matter their sins. Perfection is the understanding that not only should you wish to forgive and be forgiven because of how it might benefit you, but because it pleases God.
Because your actions have offended God, the one who Loves you more than you can possibly imagine. Can you say you Love another while spitting in their eye? Can you say you Love another when you're destroying their children?
Can you say you Love your self if you will not forgive your self? If you refuse to forgive others as you would wish to be forgiven, then you will form a habit in which you'll never forgive your self.
Hell is the place we make for our selves when we believe we are not worthy of God's Love. We prove we are not worthy of God's Love when we refuse to forgive ourselves. God Loves us beyond measure, so the only determining factor in whether or not you shall enter heaven is if you ask God to cast off your burdens. Every person stuck in hell is there because they refuse to forgive themselves for their sins, and so they refuse to ask God to be forgiven.
It naturally extends that someone who closes themselves off from the fact they've done wrong will never ask to be forgiven, and so they will forever writhe trying to hide their face from God in the shadows. The Shame Adam felt in the Garden, when he sought to hide his loins after sinning, is the Shame of Hell, and we are all born into that false belief that we are not worth forgiving, let alone being able to forgive.
The only reason you would hide is because you refuse to admit you've done wrong, not to God who knows all things, but to your self.
Hell is the absence of God, who is the Light. Those who hide in the shadows were not put there by God, but because they are afraid of the Light, and believing foolishly that God would never forgive them. The false god they believe in would punish them, so they must hide to avoid that god's punishment. That is not the True God. It is a charlatan of our own making, given power by our stubbornness, whose author is the Adversary -- those who are ad-verse; against the Word. It is the worship of the Self, and escape from Self punishment, that clouds our view of the True God's infinite Mercy.
The only way to forgive your Self is to forgive others. If you cannot forgive even the slightest of sins done against you, what hope do you have in forgiving your own sins?
Nothing I've said is new or fanciful. Everything I have written extends from what is written right here:
If by forgiveness you mean to absolve another of their sins, or allow them to stay in relation to their victims so they can make it right, I heartily disagree. This opens the door for good men to do nothing while evil men have their pleasure.
Do not conflate the power of God with the power of man.
there is great debate on this issue. No one can say with absolute certainty they are correct. That is another mistake of the human emulating God.
Forgive as ye seek to be forgiven is holding others to the same standard.
Do you honestly mean to tell me that God expects us to forgive murderers, rapists, torturers? He can -- because he knows what is in their hearts, he can trust his judgement. We CANNOT know what is in someone else's heart and the sociopath will exploit the "forgiveness" angle as long as it works for them.
As far as what Hell is -- there is great debate on that as well.
So we disagree. I doubt we will each persuade the other, but probably we are both good enough people to atleast make it to the gates of heaven -- God knows our hearts. I do not believe his standard is so high that only the sainted who can forgive the most heinous acts make it to heaven.
Ah, you are a thinker that is for sure. Much thought given to the efficacy of presentation to protect oneself.
Having given much thought to the line of discussion we are on and running it through my own filters (as we all have them), I realized that I have never fully embraced the point of it all as forgiveness or even love. I could not articulate my dissent from this philosophy very well until today, but realized that I have been articulating my dissent for years.
That is before we discuss forgiveness, we must be dedicated to Truth. For without leading with truth, our desire to resolve emotional pain can trap us into believing something is "true" to increase our comfort.
So if you will only change because you get something out of it, that is self serving. True contrition is the expression of doing the right thing REGARDLESS of your gain. While exploiting someone's selfishness to change behavior may be pragmatic in the short term, it does not change the heart. God will forgive you -- but a person's forgiveness ought not to be the motivator for change.
Moral adherence and benign intent can go hand in hand. The failure to forgive the sociopath will not keep a person out of heaven. However, holding onto grudges over minor misdeeds reveal a selfishness that will certainly keep you from focusing on the big picture, thus moving you away from God.
Again, I assert, the criminal has no entitlement to human forgiveness -- in fact, his willingness to change because it is the morally correct thing to do regardless of his discomfort provides much greater opportunity for spiritual growth and maturity.
Quit infantilizing the sinner.
thx for listening.
I agree with the prior, but I'm not sure if this is directed at my argument.
The way I see it, is if I were in the place of the sinner in question, and I did have the resolve and intent to repent, I would want the opportunity to prove I am sorry and try to fix what I broke.
It's not necessarily infantilizing the sinner when I think that way.
If God were not to grant mercy for even the most grievous of sinners, then there is no hope for the rest of us. Either God embodies pure Love and Mercy, or he doesn't. By closing yourself off from the nature and Will of God, you close yourself off from your own ability to forgive your self.
Ultimately, we are called to forgive because we wish to be forgiven.
Perfection is achieved when one forgives as God does, with the fervor of a parent forgiving their child no matter their sins. Perfection is the understanding that not only should you wish to forgive and be forgiven because of how it might benefit you, but because it pleases God.
Because your actions have offended God, the one who Loves you more than you can possibly imagine. Can you say you Love another while spitting in their eye? Can you say you Love another when you're destroying their children?
Can you say you Love your self if you will not forgive your self? If you refuse to forgive others as you would wish to be forgiven, then you will form a habit in which you'll never forgive your self.
Hell is the place we make for our selves when we believe we are not worthy of God's Love. We prove we are not worthy of God's Love when we refuse to forgive ourselves. God Loves us beyond measure, so the only determining factor in whether or not you shall enter heaven is if you ask God to cast off your burdens. Every person stuck in hell is there because they refuse to forgive themselves for their sins, and so they refuse to ask God to be forgiven.
It naturally extends that someone who closes themselves off from the fact they've done wrong will never ask to be forgiven, and so they will forever writhe trying to hide their face from God in the shadows. The Shame Adam felt in the Garden, when he sought to hide his loins after sinning, is the Shame of Hell, and we are all born into that false belief that we are not worth forgiving, let alone being able to forgive.
The only reason you would hide is because you refuse to admit you've done wrong, not to God who knows all things, but to your self.
Hell is the absence of God, who is the Light. Those who hide in the shadows were not put there by God, but because they are afraid of the Light, and believing foolishly that God would never forgive them. The false god they believe in would punish them, so they must hide to avoid that god's punishment. That is not the True God. It is a charlatan of our own making, given power by our stubbornness, whose author is the Adversary -- those who are ad-verse; against the Word. It is the worship of the Self, and escape from Self punishment, that clouds our view of the True God's infinite Mercy.
The only way to forgive your Self is to forgive others. If you cannot forgive even the slightest of sins done against you, what hope do you have in forgiving your own sins?
Nothing I've said is new or fanciful. Everything I have written extends from what is written right here:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+18&version=GNV
Agree to disagree.
If by forgiveness you mean to absolve another of their sins, or allow them to stay in relation to their victims so they can make it right, I heartily disagree. This opens the door for good men to do nothing while evil men have their pleasure.
Do not conflate the power of God with the power of man.
there is great debate on this issue. No one can say with absolute certainty they are correct. That is another mistake of the human emulating God.
Forgive as ye seek to be forgiven is holding others to the same standard.
Do you honestly mean to tell me that God expects us to forgive murderers, rapists, torturers? He can -- because he knows what is in their hearts, he can trust his judgement. We CANNOT know what is in someone else's heart and the sociopath will exploit the "forgiveness" angle as long as it works for them.
As far as what Hell is -- there is great debate on that as well.
So we disagree. I doubt we will each persuade the other, but probably we are both good enough people to atleast make it to the gates of heaven -- God knows our hearts. I do not believe his standard is so high that only the sainted who can forgive the most heinous acts make it to heaven.