Okay, I know this one might strike a little close to the whole "Catholics worship Mary" debate, but try to approach this with an open mind, will ya? Let's get something straight, Intercession =/= Worship. If you don't like that idea, just ignore it.
That's all I want to hear from the Catholic Bashers and Catechist freaks alike, okay? Let's have equal ground in this discussion, because I'm gonna approach this in a way you likely never heard of before, no matter where you come from...
Let's get to it then.
First, an analogy.
Have you ever made an origami crane, frog, or ninja-man? How about just a paper plane? Paper plane, right, that's something everyone should be familiar with.
Right. So.
If you can, make one for me. right now. Do it, please. What I'm about to say will make so much more sense if you do. Made it? Okay, now make a second one. And a third. And a fourth. Four should be good enough...
How do they differ? How are they the same? Did you try putting that little crease in the back so it catches wind? Some people know about that trick, it makes it more likely it pulls upwards when you toss it, instead of nose-diving.
Alright. Enough with the mystery. Let me explain what happened.
You made something. You put your energy into something that was a blank slate, a piece of paper, and now that there are folds in it there is no going back to that same perfect sheet of paper. The creases are there, and the crinkle that formed at the nose of the plane when it bumped into the wall can't be flattened back.
Despite all that, those paper planes are your children. There have been many before them, and will be many after, but those are yours. They may have quirks; some may be rushed and rugged while others crisp and delicate; some may have awkward and uneven folds while others perfectly symmetrical.
Now... How many planes do you have to make until you make the perfect paper plane?
You might not catch what I'm laying down when I say perfect. Some will say there is no such thing as perfect. Hogwash. There is a perfect, and I can prove it.
When I say paper plane, what do you see in your mind?
What forms in your head when I tell you to imagine a paper plane?
THAT is the perfect paper plane. That idea in your mind. Perfect does exist, and you see it every time you close your eyes and imagine. Our collective imaginations tap into an ideal that exists. Specific details may vary, but how that plane functions is what matters most.
When you actually try to make it, however, circumstances as they may be prohibit you from actualizing that which you keep in the fat-folds of your brain.
But, despite that, we KNOW there is such a thing as a "perfect" paper plane. It's right there in your mind, ready to go and it fulfills your every expectation. Perfectly balanced. Perfectly creased edges. No mistakes. Pitches up on the toss, and when it bumps it crumples symmetrically, rather than bending the nose to one side or the other. In other words, it's almost like a dream come true.
There are those who say they believe in Jesus. Believe he is the Perfect Man. Yet how can you say Perfection is merely a fantasy and not actually attained while still proclaiming Christ as the Perfect Man, clean of all sin?
Even God said himself "This is [a]that my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"
When you make a paper plane, the first one you take your time on. You are careful and plan everything out meticulously in hopes that the first attempt will fulfill that vision you hold in your mind's eye. As an artist, let me tell ya, it seldom ever works out the first time...
Even so, that first plane is your first plane. I've made a number of origami cranes in my past, as well, and I can tell you that there is always a fondness for the first one you make after a long time of neglecting the craft. It has a delicacy in a way. The paper always feels thinner. It's hard to describe, which is why I asked you to make the planes instead of just imagine it. Some nuances can only be understood through direct personal experience. This is critically important, mind you.
Anyways... There is a difference between the first paper plane you made and the FIRST AMONG the paper plans you made. One flies better than the rest, for whatever reason. Only one sits at the top spot as it pertains to matching what you saw in your mind's eye.
Such is the Truth in Christ. Jesus wasn't the first man. Adam was, and he was made with all intents of being a "one and done" sort of thing. Unfortunately, Adam did not live up to the expectations in the mind of God. God being the Creator, understands this and instead of calling it quits, knew that a Creator's Magnum Opus isn't always gonna come about from the first attempt.
Eventually, circumstances allowed Jesus to be born, fulfilling all the prophecies, and now we have the First among Men. The Son of Man. The Man God envisioned in his mind's eye, the mind's eye of mind's eyes, incarnate before all the World to revel in glory and praise that he has come at last!
But... We are missing one critical point here.
How did God birth Adam?
7 ¶ The Lord God also [g]made the man [h]of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his face breath of life, and the man was a living soul. - Genesis 2
God breathed life into Adam, who he formed in the Womb of the Earth.
He cast Adam like pouring molten metal into a mold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRfymA6HN5Y
You see, that's where God was working at a disadvantage. The proper mold had not yet come about. Woman hadn't yet been made, so how could Man possibly be expected to be anything other than a being of the Earth when he was borne of the Earth? Of course Adam would not fulfill the vision God had, it was to be expected.
Instead, God made Adam with the hope he would not disappoint, but with the expectation that eventually a proper mold would come about from his kin which would bear His flesh incarnate. That the Man of God's Mind's Eye be made manifest in full, and please him well.
This is the dream God had of the Virgin Birth.
The Virgin Birth is a like the mold for casting, but having never been used. Anyone who has done casting can attest to just how lucky/grace-given you'd have to be for any mold to be perfect right on the first pour.
It's like inventing something, skipping the prototype phase, and it just working exactly how you intended.
I'm talking about threading a needle here...
God wagered the odds and did the impossible of the impossible. Asked the hardest of the hardest of his Creation. Such is the magnificence of God!
Concerning the Virgin Birth, only such a circumstance would be proper, if you think about it.
So, God planned for the Virginal Womb to bear His Self Incarnate.
Enter, the Virgin Mary.
Imagine you were to cast a statue.
How many times would you have to use the same mold, fine tuning it and tweaking the process, until you get the PERFECT POUR. One with little to no flashing, and requiring no extraneous polishing or filling of voids?
A dozen times? Hundreds? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?
Some say it would be impossible...
And that's with the same mold, being used over and over and refurbished until it satisfies your goals.
The odds are already not in your favor...
Now...
Instead of being able to do it with a mold that you fine tune, the mold is virginal. Never before been cast in.
What was already impossible odds, is now beyond impossible. It was already hard enough trying to tune the mold to pour perfectly. Now you expect that a new mold which has not been tested will fulfill all that is requested of it?
Nothing is impossible for God, however...
This is the Alchemical Principle of the Virgin Birth. A womb untouched. Everything left up to insurmountable odds. A One and Done situation in every way imaginable. Fresh stock in every tool, every board, every cutting, even down to the most minute of details.
Mary represents the Creator's faith in us. She represents the Creator being so confident that THIS will be the Pour of Pours; the Casting of Castings; the Perfect Man made manifest -- his own Beloved Son, that he chose a virgin womb.
That's how much faith God had in Humanity -- that it could bear His Flesh.
The Virgin Mother Mary represents the threading of the needle of needles.
Exponentially impossible odds.
Beyond reason. Beyond understanding. The Great Mystery.
It's like sitting down right now and making a paper plane, just one, and having it be the best paper plane ever. Not just the best paper plane made by you, but the best paper plane made by any man ever.
No warm ups. No prototypes. Perfection without need of practice.
Do you now have some appreciation for how patient God truly is? To have crafted so many of our kind, yet never give up hope that One will please him beyond measure?
Do you now understand how Great is our God that he not only persevered so long until his Son be born, but that instead of discarding us, his "failed" Creations, that he cherished us above all other of his Creations?
God made each and every one of us with the expectations that we be exactly like the Man that he envisioned in his Mind when he sat down to craft us with his own blood, sweat, and tears. He would not discard us so easily. Only by disappointing him beyond measure would he ever toss us into the trash bin. Only by our own decision to refuse to fly when he offers us every opportunity to soar will he be forced to lay us down among all those others who spite God for not making them something, anything, other than a paper plane.
Instead, he made the Son of Man not so that he may measure each of us by our flaws in comparison to the Perfect Man, but so that he may cherish us for how close we are to that Man he had envisioned. That despite our flaws, we still fly even remotely close to how perfectly Jesus flies. He Loves us because we have chosen to overcome those same impossible odds he faced when he made each and every one of us.
Every time you face adversity and rise again to fight another day, God looks upon you with a Father's infinite joy in their child's success.
But we cannot forget what has brought us to this point. That which was instrumental in demonstrating the wonder and awe of our God. Mary, the Virgin Womb, offered to be God's handmaid in this endeavor. She had no substantive reason to assume that the one she bore would go on to be THE Son of Man. She could have given birth to just another David. Instead, she bore not just a King, but the King of Kings.
What faith she must have had, to sacrifice herself to what would have seemed to be impossible odds...
Both the Faith of Mary and God worked to form Jesus in her untouched womb. It could have been no other way.
The collective Faith of God and Humanity together, envisioning in their mind's eye the Perfect Being to free us from wondering whether seeking perfection is a fruitless endeavor.
Mary did something remarkable. Not only did she believe in God. She believed in Humanity. She believed that Humanity had it in us to be the proper vessel for our God.
That's why she deserves the honor above all other mortals, as the Mother of Man. She put her faith in the most impossible of impossibilities. None other before or since has had such a Perfect Faith in both God and Humanity.
She is our primary Advocate. Without Mary, there would have been none of substantial faith to have threaded the needle which is the Virgin Birth, Christ our Lord.
Don't worship her. Honor her, as the Mother who would die a thousand deaths for he children. Humanity is her child, because her Son came to Save us from ourselves. Without her Sacrifice, Jesus would not have been able to make his. And for that, I thank Mary from the bottom of my heart.
If you've read this far, I thank you. This took a lot out of me. Writing this way always drains me, and I seldom remember what I wrote as soon as it leaves my fingers. I'm gonna go to bed now, and I'll probably wake up wondering who it was who broke into my room and wrote this.
Anyways, God Bless and Keep you. Night night.
I mean, if you have an authentic resource to back up your claim, then present it.
Otherwise, it's not a lie. I'm not familiar with a single passage where it says "Joseph then laid with his wife to consumate their marriage"
Honestly, you're just poking holes in the semantics here. Do you have a dog in this fight, or what?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus
"Virgin Birth" is the agreed upon name for the miracle, whether you agree with it or not.
Yeah, but where in the Bible does it explicitly state that Joseph laid with Mary?
He tried to duck out of their marriage up until an angel told him not to in a dream.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+1%3A18-25&version=GNV
Then it talks about her being virgin, and makes a whole deal about it.
When you said "I'm not familiar with a single version that has the words "the Virgin Mary" either you've never read a Bible or you're just willfully ignorant to push your own personal narrative, so what is it?
It's in ALL interpretations of this line, by the way, so don't try to weasel your way out of it.
https://biblehub.com/matthew/1-23.htm
It explicitly states VIRGIN in every damn version, so... I call bullshit on your "knowledge" of the Bible, dude.
But, I'll humor you and give you the benefit of the doubt anyways...
Are you telling me he banged a pregnant Mary?
Because I did find something that implied he might have banged her AFTER she gave birth:
"Knew her/him" was slang in those days for having sexual relations with someone, so there is support to your theory of consumation AFTER the Virginal Birth.
However, the notes in GNV paint a different story.
Which means to imply that the phrasing of "till" in this case "till she had brought forth her first born son" is simply a form of communicating the time frame of the previous point of "but he knew her not." Seeing how these notes were written in 1599 by a protestant denomination, I don't quite sense a skew towards bias in this interpretation.
Anyways... I guess what I'm trying to say is unless you can quote the Bible like I have done, you can shove your nonsense right back up your ass where you pulled it out from.
I know you really, really are butthurt and want to be right at all costs, but you're slandering the text so bad it's painful.
In your floundering, you even contradict your own point...
You cite Matthew 1:20 to support your argument.
Then, not five lines later, it reads
I don't care what YOU claim. The general consensus FOR YEARS is that the literal translation of "knowing" someone in the Bible is JUST sexual relations.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19%3A5&version=GNV
https://www.bibleref.com/Genesis/19/Genesis-19-5.html
MANY MORE scholars than I have agreed that this is what "know" means in this context.
Genesis 19:5, in particular, COMPLETELY disproves your attempt to slander the Word. The men of Sodom wanted to have sex with his guests, both MALE and FEMALE. They had no intent to make a baby or progeny as you so claim.
You're reaching so hard here and you know it.
I know, I know, you wanna be right, but you have no basis. You're mincing words, taking them out of full context, willfully disregarding thousands of years of consensus, and all for what?
To say that Joseph banged Mary? Is it just because you're perverted and have a preggo fetish or what?
Why does it matter so much to you that you'd weasel your way around like a snake to get your way in words? As it stands, your claim is far less precedented than mine. You're pulling this stance out of your ass in the most obvious way possible, and your attempt to convince me has only hurt your own credibility. If you have ANY other references to point to, please provide them.
As it stands, you're all alone in your belief. I have no reason at all to believe in what you claim. At this point, you're claiming you are right "just because" that's how you read the text.