I think I see now where you’re coming from.
I read up on it a bit trying to comprehend what you’re saying. I’ve read and studied books of Enoch. It’s interesting stuff. Not exactly forbidden knowledge. I personally like the Gospel of Nicodemus. It tells of Jesus’ “harrowing of Hell”. Just because they’re extra canonical doesn’t make them heretical. As for the book of the upright mentioned in Joshua and Samuel it seems, from my quick skim of the book itself, to be another version of the creation story. It’s a rather recently discovered document, and wasn’t available to the compilers of the anthology. Yes Enoch is referenced in the Gospels, because the audience was familiar with these books. It lent validity to the message. It seems to have been remarkably effective. Christianity has been (mostly) a powerful force for good in the world.
I understand your hostility to the church at Rome. Maybe you don’t know the Church at Rome excommunicated the Eastern Orthodox churches in 1054. Rome demanded acceptance of their theological errors, but Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria refused. It had seemingly tragic consequences. Rome gave birth to a multitude of baby churches. Maybe this was part of God’s plan I don’t know, but it’s been bloody tragic too. Freemasonry is part of it too, along with Rosicrucians and various other nonsense.
I wasn’t a Christian, I was in rebellion. God reached down and put me in my place. I wound up in a Greek Orthodox cathedral.
I’d never heard of them. I learned a lot. Mostly what was wrong with the version of Christianity I’d rejected, and why I was correct to do so.
I had some mystical experiences. I converted. I’m officially Orthodox. I’m the only one in my family. None of my friends were. It’s not been easy. I am, however fundamentally transformed.
It’s not, for me at least, about traditions, or rituals, or anything other than a personal relationship with Jesus the resurrected Christ. I’d never have been able to contextualize it all without getting educated by the Church, but Theosis is an individual pursuit for me. I work out my own salvation with diligence, as the Buddha advised. I’m an anchorite. (A religious hermit)
I will close by observing that the creation is good. The Creator is good. Life is good.
We are told explicitly we will be bodily resurrected as was Jesus Christ, as our body and mind and soul are a unit. The patristics discuss all this at length.
These are not the beliefs of the Gnostics.
They think the creation is an abomination and our souls are “trapped” in bodies.
That’s essentially anti human. I think it’s a snare and caution you personally about becoming ensnared. We are embodied spirits. Demons resent that, as they feel superior to us but can’t get embodied. They despise and envy us for our special status. Thus they seek to undermine and destroy us every chance they get. Look around and you see their work everywhere.
Still, we all have our stumbling blocks, and our own personal pilgrimage to make. There are signs along the road, but they aren’t always reliable. Recall that after D day in France the Germans changed road signs around to confound the invaders with good effect.
Do try to avoid becoming confused by erroneous information, no matter how convincing, and keep the goal constantly in mind. Jesus loves us, and wants us to repent and come home. God speed you on your journey.
I hope you’ll understand I’m not in conflict with you personally. I do understand your situation. I’m entirely sympathetic and wish you only success.
As for the issue with Fr as a form of address, originally it was “presbyter”. Elder. In old world etiquette all older men were addressed as “father” and old women were addressed as “mother”. Orthodox priests marry. They’re wives are addressed as “presbytera”. I agree with Jesus’ admonition. No man is The Father, and anyone claiming such title is a fraud. I’m not much on large institutions. I don’t trust them.
If there’s one I do trust it’s the Orthodox Church, though individual results may vary.
It’s constructed of the “crooked timber of humanity” like any other bureaucracy.
Maybe I’m too individualistic. Jesus seems not to think so, or he’d put me back in catechism…. (I jest).
As with all human run institutions. Unfortunately, ~5% of people in a healthy normal society are narcissistic enough to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder and another ~1% are so far gone they can be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder.
Those people love and want power over other people. They infiltrate institutions over time and promote people they like (i.e. people who think like them) and corrupt any institution given enough time.
The men of circumstance who are pushed into position of leadership are the greats.
The men who seek out positions of leadership and believe that they are the best one suited to be "leader" are the psychopaths.
Any one who thinks that they are the best candidate to lead is automatically a narcissistic at minimum.
Any man who self professes their greatness over others in an effort to have a form of control is dangerous.
A pithy essay on bureaucracies for your consideration. (The writer is a philosophy professor friend of mine) That whole site (Friesian dot com, is a treasure trove for history, philosophy, political economy, etc.
He’s an unrepentant Neo-Platonist, but he’s a pretty cool guy.).
Totally agree with narcissistic and psychopathic assessment.
Of course GEOTUS fits the profile, but at least he’s “our” psychopath….
Ever heard of Dr. Michael Heiser? He’s an academic in the field of ancient languages. He’s a Christian, but he tries to show how to think as the contemporaries of both OT and NT would have interpreted the language. He’s got a lot of good videos. He goes into Gnosticism a bit. I learned a good deal from him. His take on Elohim actually being plural is compelling. He essentially says the “divine council” aka Elohim is a Heavenly bureaucracy. At least he says that’s what the books say. I haven’t heard him say anything that contradicts the dogma I got in catechism. He’s not big on “tradition” though.
I agree with that too.
I also did some inquiring into why the OT was translated into Greek in the 3rd century BC. It’s because after Alexander that whole domain spoke Greek as “lingua Franca” and many Judeans didn’t read or speak Hebrew!
They call it Septuagint (or LXX) because 72 translators were hired for the task, and their versions were compared for accuracy. There’s still some minor divergences from the Masoretic text, but nothing sufficient to falsify.
Really enjoying this interchange, btw. I’ve been inspired to delve, which is one of my few pleasures. So, thank you. You’re a prince.
I think I see now where you’re coming from. I read up on it a bit trying to comprehend what you’re saying. I’ve read and studied books of Enoch. It’s interesting stuff. Not exactly forbidden knowledge. I personally like the Gospel of Nicodemus. It tells of Jesus’ “harrowing of Hell”. Just because they’re extra canonical doesn’t make them heretical. As for the book of the upright mentioned in Joshua and Samuel it seems, from my quick skim of the book itself, to be another version of the creation story. It’s a rather recently discovered document, and wasn’t available to the compilers of the anthology. Yes Enoch is referenced in the Gospels, because the audience was familiar with these books. It lent validity to the message. It seems to have been remarkably effective. Christianity has been (mostly) a powerful force for good in the world.
I understand your hostility to the church at Rome. Maybe you don’t know the Church at Rome excommunicated the Eastern Orthodox churches in 1054. Rome demanded acceptance of their theological errors, but Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria refused. It had seemingly tragic consequences. Rome gave birth to a multitude of baby churches. Maybe this was part of God’s plan I don’t know, but it’s been bloody tragic too. Freemasonry is part of it too, along with Rosicrucians and various other nonsense.
I wasn’t a Christian, I was in rebellion. God reached down and put me in my place. I wound up in a Greek Orthodox cathedral. I’d never heard of them. I learned a lot. Mostly what was wrong with the version of Christianity I’d rejected, and why I was correct to do so.
I had some mystical experiences. I converted. I’m officially Orthodox. I’m the only one in my family. None of my friends were. It’s not been easy. I am, however fundamentally transformed.
It’s not, for me at least, about traditions, or rituals, or anything other than a personal relationship with Jesus the resurrected Christ. I’d never have been able to contextualize it all without getting educated by the Church, but Theosis is an individual pursuit for me. I work out my own salvation with diligence, as the Buddha advised. I’m an anchorite. (A religious hermit)
I will close by observing that the creation is good. The Creator is good. Life is good. We are told explicitly we will be bodily resurrected as was Jesus Christ, as our body and mind and soul are a unit. The patristics discuss all this at length.
These are not the beliefs of the Gnostics. They think the creation is an abomination and our souls are “trapped” in bodies. That’s essentially anti human. I think it’s a snare and caution you personally about becoming ensnared. We are embodied spirits. Demons resent that, as they feel superior to us but can’t get embodied. They despise and envy us for our special status. Thus they seek to undermine and destroy us every chance they get. Look around and you see their work everywhere.
Still, we all have our stumbling blocks, and our own personal pilgrimage to make. There are signs along the road, but they aren’t always reliable. Recall that after D day in France the Germans changed road signs around to confound the invaders with good effect.
Do try to avoid becoming confused by erroneous information, no matter how convincing, and keep the goal constantly in mind. Jesus loves us, and wants us to repent and come home. God speed you on your journey.
I hope you’ll understand I’m not in conflict with you personally. I do understand your situation. I’m entirely sympathetic and wish you only success.
You're a cool guy
You too.
As for the issue with Fr as a form of address, originally it was “presbyter”. Elder. In old world etiquette all older men were addressed as “father” and old women were addressed as “mother”. Orthodox priests marry. They’re wives are addressed as “presbytera”. I agree with Jesus’ admonition. No man is The Father, and anyone claiming such title is a fraud. I’m not much on large institutions. I don’t trust them. If there’s one I do trust it’s the Orthodox Church, though individual results may vary. It’s constructed of the “crooked timber of humanity” like any other bureaucracy.
Maybe I’m too individualistic. Jesus seems not to think so, or he’d put me back in catechism…. (I jest).
As with all human run institutions. Unfortunately, ~5% of people in a healthy normal society are narcissistic enough to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder and another ~1% are so far gone they can be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder.
Those people love and want power over other people. They infiltrate institutions over time and promote people they like (i.e. people who think like them) and corrupt any institution given enough time.
The men of circumstance who are pushed into position of leadership are the greats.
The men who seek out positions of leadership and believe that they are the best one suited to be "leader" are the psychopaths.
Any one who thinks that they are the best candidate to lead is automatically a narcissistic at minimum.
Any man who self professes their greatness over others in an effort to have a form of control is dangerous.
https://www.friesian.com/bureau.htm
A pithy essay on bureaucracies for your consideration. (The writer is a philosophy professor friend of mine) That whole site (Friesian dot com, is a treasure trove for history, philosophy, political economy, etc. He’s an unrepentant Neo-Platonist, but he’s a pretty cool guy.).
Totally agree with narcissistic and psychopathic assessment.
Of course GEOTUS fits the profile, but at least he’s “our” psychopath….
Ever heard of Dr. Michael Heiser? He’s an academic in the field of ancient languages. He’s a Christian, but he tries to show how to think as the contemporaries of both OT and NT would have interpreted the language. He’s got a lot of good videos. He goes into Gnosticism a bit. I learned a good deal from him. His take on Elohim actually being plural is compelling. He essentially says the “divine council” aka Elohim is a Heavenly bureaucracy. At least he says that’s what the books say. I haven’t heard him say anything that contradicts the dogma I got in catechism. He’s not big on “tradition” though. I agree with that too.
I also did some inquiring into why the OT was translated into Greek in the 3rd century BC. It’s because after Alexander that whole domain spoke Greek as “lingua Franca” and many Judeans didn’t read or speak Hebrew!
They call it Septuagint (or LXX) because 72 translators were hired for the task, and their versions were compared for accuracy. There’s still some minor divergences from the Masoretic text, but nothing sufficient to falsify.
Really enjoying this interchange, btw. I’ve been inspired to delve, which is one of my few pleasures. So, thank you. You’re a prince.