We evolved over millennial time scales to live in a tribe, where everybody knew everybody in the tribe. And the tribe had a leader. Someone everybody looked up to.
This seems too simplistic. In my mind.. tribal cultures have constant battles for leadership, constant faction events that split the tribe either fully or just over specific leadership decisions, wars with external tribes and packs of predatory animals and natural disasters that force movement. There's also good evidence that there's always been highly nomadic cultures that don't ascribe to much of this.
We're pack animals to be sure.. but the structure of that pack I think is quite a bit different than how everyone idealizes it.
Yeah but my point remains. Humans evolved to live in a tribe, where the tribe leader determined everything.
Countries try to rule humans in a way that makes sense. I think the US Constitution is an awesome attempt to civilize us. The problem is that evil people are find ways around the Constitution.
I honestly think there's two different genetic lines. One has attributes that make it more tribal, and the other more nomadic, but importantly.. a person can survive in either condition; unlike animals that are obligated to live in their tribe or die of starvation.
where the tribe leader determined everything.
That's the part I'm least sure of. It's a nice idea. A cave in the woods with a single voice ordering everything. How likely do you think that actually is, though? It's an unnatural arrangement and requires massive amounts of additional energy just to maintain it.. for a survivalist species, this doesn't seem likely to be the "major mode" in our history.
Just look at Native American history. These clean "classroom" ideas how of we organized are just that.. from a classroom and not from experience or history.
Countries try to rule humans in a way that makes sense.
That's why they fail. People cannot be fully ruled.
I think the US Constitution is an awesome attempt to civilize us.
I might just be pedantic, but "civilize" is too harsh a word and it misses the point of the Constitution. It starts out by recognizing our natural rights, and that those rights don't come from anything other than our creator. It ends by reserving any unclaimed rights to the states and to the citizens directly.
It doesn't "civilize" us. It creates an agreement under which mutually interested parties can prosper without past, present or future interference of the state, or by any "rule" of anything. The first amendment is a powerful reminder of this fact, I think.
The problem is that evil people are find ways around the Constitution.
Thank you for taking the time to pick apart my comment into 5 pieces.
Is this something you take personally? Or are you merely imagining that the reasons I am doing this are identical to the reasons you would do this? How likely is that?
But I think you actually agree with me, yes?
That's why I said.. maybe I'm being pedantic. I left open the door that I'm possibly over analyzing this and diving deeper on something insignificant. I just don't find conversations where people just gladhand each other and mindlessly click up arrows particularly interesting. If this is an issue, I'm happy to be ignored.
The Constitution is document that attempts to scale up society from tribal to mega scale.
The way you pose it, you give supernatural powers to the constitution, I think is what my issue is. The people who framed it came from a functioning society, they were far from tribal, and the first 10 amendments hint deeply as to what their overall goal was. It was a strong refinement of what came before, and more than anything else before it, it freed the people to themselves and not to some power handed down by bloodline.
In that sense.. the Constitution is just a reflection of who we are as people already, and it holds no deeper authority in and of itself. The fact that it binds government and not individuals is a strong hint to this.
Our enemies are not following it. We just want to follow it.
If all you want is to agree with a 200 year old piece of paper, then perhaps your enemies have you exactly where they want you already?
This seems too simplistic. In my mind.. tribal cultures have constant battles for leadership, constant faction events that split the tribe either fully or just over specific leadership decisions, wars with external tribes and packs of predatory animals and natural disasters that force movement. There's also good evidence that there's always been highly nomadic cultures that don't ascribe to much of this.
We're pack animals to be sure.. but the structure of that pack I think is quite a bit different than how everyone idealizes it.
Yeah but my point remains. Humans evolved to live in a tribe, where the tribe leader determined everything.
Countries try to rule humans in a way that makes sense. I think the US Constitution is an awesome attempt to civilize us. The problem is that evil people are find ways around the Constitution.
I honestly think there's two different genetic lines. One has attributes that make it more tribal, and the other more nomadic, but importantly.. a person can survive in either condition; unlike animals that are obligated to live in their tribe or die of starvation.
That's the part I'm least sure of. It's a nice idea. A cave in the woods with a single voice ordering everything. How likely do you think that actually is, though? It's an unnatural arrangement and requires massive amounts of additional energy just to maintain it.. for a survivalist species, this doesn't seem likely to be the "major mode" in our history.
Just look at Native American history. These clean "classroom" ideas how of we organized are just that.. from a classroom and not from experience or history.
That's why they fail. People cannot be fully ruled.
I might just be pedantic, but "civilize" is too harsh a word and it misses the point of the Constitution. It starts out by recognizing our natural rights, and that those rights don't come from anything other than our creator. It ends by reserving any unclaimed rights to the states and to the citizens directly.
It doesn't "civilize" us. It creates an agreement under which mutually interested parties can prosper without past, present or future interference of the state, or by any "rule" of anything. The first amendment is a powerful reminder of this fact, I think.
There I fully agree with you.
Thank you for taking the time to pick apart my comment into 5 pieces.
But I think you actually agree with me, yes?
The Constitution is document that attempts to scale up society from tribal to mega scale. Our enemies are not following it. We just want to follow it.
Is this something you take personally? Or are you merely imagining that the reasons I am doing this are identical to the reasons you would do this? How likely is that?
That's why I said.. maybe I'm being pedantic. I left open the door that I'm possibly over analyzing this and diving deeper on something insignificant. I just don't find conversations where people just gladhand each other and mindlessly click up arrows particularly interesting. If this is an issue, I'm happy to be ignored.
The way you pose it, you give supernatural powers to the constitution, I think is what my issue is. The people who framed it came from a functioning society, they were far from tribal, and the first 10 amendments hint deeply as to what their overall goal was. It was a strong refinement of what came before, and more than anything else before it, it freed the people to themselves and not to some power handed down by bloodline.
In that sense.. the Constitution is just a reflection of who we are as people already, and it holds no deeper authority in and of itself. The fact that it binds government and not individuals is a strong hint to this.
If all you want is to agree with a 200 year old piece of paper, then perhaps your enemies have you exactly where they want you already?