Thank you Bekind! Glad to get your thoughts and input!
There are obviously lots of different ways that people interpret and understand what scripture is attempting to tell us. Let me see if I can engage with what you have written here to explain a bit more clearly my viewpoint.
Firstly, the syntax may have been ambiguous, but what I meant to write was that The devil seduced the woman and used her to destroy Adam - not that the woman Eve destroyed Adam. That's what the devil did. The devil, in my understanding, is Satan who was originally the archangel Lucifer. In the process of the Fall, Lucifer fell to become Satan, and both Adam and Eve fell to become 'reborn' under Satan as fallen beings.
I suspect we are in agreement about some things. E.g. Adam was the one that was given the commandment, and ultimately, the responsibility lies with him. This is the reason why Christ comes as man (and not as a woman).
However, the scripture does not indicate that Adam was literally with Eve (in Eve's presence) when she fell, and I believe that is not the case. I do, however, agree that if Adam had had his wits about him more, then he would have noticed Eve's behavior going off track, and could have taken steps to prevent the situation before it reached tipping point. (In my understanding, the process of tempting Eve did not happen in one hour or one day, but over time, as Lucifer got closer and closer to Eve, sowing doubt in her mind and slowly seducing her to "eat the fruit".
Also, even if Eve fell by eating the fruit, then Adam still had a responsibility to keep faith in the commandment and reject her advances.
Neither of them is blameless, obviously. Both of them were responsible to keep faith in God and God's word, and both of them failed. However, the ultimate responsibility lies with Adam, because Adam was to be the Lord over Creation in God's place (as God;s son and representative, I mean), and in the family unit, the man is meant to be the subject, and the woman, to unite with him.
I'm so glad that you have obviously given this topic some thought. In my view, most believers don't really reflect on or understand very clearly the reality of the Fall and what the scripture is trying to tell us.
In existing theology, there remain numerous unresolved problems that need to be untangled, clarified and understood in a unified manner.
For example, how is it possible that Lucifer, a good being created by God, could fall to become Satan? What was the nature of the fruit and the "tree" on which it grew? Symbolic, literal? And why on earth would Adam or Eve eat the fruit when they KNEW that it would kill them? What could they have desired more than even life itself? Why did God, a father with love, put a "fruit" and a tree in the middle of the Garden where his children could perish by eating it? What loving parent would do that? How was it possible for Adam and Eve to fall if they themselves were pure and had no evil?
The key to all this are a few things that need to be understood, imo.
One, that all living beings created by God go through a growing process from birth or conception to maturity and completion. In the case of creation, that growing process is automatic. But in the case of human beings, created to be God's children, it isn't automatic. It actually requires human beings to exercise our OWN responsibility.
Physically, our flesh grows to maturity and completion (when full reproduction of the next generation becomes possible) automatically, through a combination of the right elements: Air, warmth, light, (+) elements, and water, food, activity (-) elements. Together, these combine in our body and it grows automatically. But notice that the (+) elements are there basically without any effort on our part (provided as part of the environment). But the (-) elements require us to gather water and food, and do activity, through our own effort.
Our spirits (aka our heart and mind) grows through a similar process, combining love, truth and grace from God (provided from God), with living elements that are generated in our flesh by us acting and living in accordance with God's word. When we live and act in accordance with God's word and way, our bodies generate a healthy, nourishing energetic (spiritual) element that our spirit uses to grow, like spiritual food, etc. But if we act contradicting to God's word and way, then our flesh generates toxic, destructive energetic element, that cripples our heart and spirit, and deforms them over time, so that they do not function properly.
Adam and Eve were created and most of us imagine they were created as adults, presto. But every living thing in the universe is born and grows. We can therefore understand that Adam and Eve were born in some form, their flesh was born from flesh (aka "soil"), but at some point, God breathed Life (spirit) into them.
During their growing process, growing to full maturity, they would be vulnerable to going off track IF some force that was stronger than their inherent but immature goodness came along. That was why God gave the commandment. To protect them. If a power of temptation came along, from Lucifer for example, who had lost his way, it might overpower their inherent but immature goodness. BUT if they kept the power of faith in the commandment, then the power of their inherent but immature goodness PLUS the power of faith would be stronger than the power of the temptation.
Adam and Eve had to keep their faith, reject any temptation, and then they would have safely traversed the period of growing and maturing, and then reached perfection of the heart and spirit, wherein their love with God was completed and perfect. A human being whose heart is perfectly mature becomes one with God and becomes inseparable from God, and cannot sin. We know this because this is what Jesus accomplished. He too was born pure but immature like Adam, born of the holy spirit from God even though his flesh was from his physical lineage. but her grew in maturity, in understanding through many trials, to perfect himself as the first and original True Adam.
Understanding that human responsibility is a KEY part of God's plan for us, individually and as a whole, and the key reason for the Fall (failure in responsibility by both Adam and Eve) is critical for putting together all the pieces of the puzzle.
And because Adam fell WITH Eve, under Lucifer's influence, they actually founded a fallen lineage, that manifests Satan's nature (sin) and Satan's characteristics (conflict, division, hate, etc), a lineage that passes that nature down to all subsequent generations.
How did Adam and Eve fall? There were TWO dimensions. One was the spiritual fall, when Eve 'ate the fruit' with Lucifer, a spiritual being, and Two, the physical or fleshly fall, when Eve took the fruit and ate it with Adam.
Instead of achieving a true lineage that is one with God's purpose and God's love, where God is the sovereign, and wherein all descendants would inherit God's love and nature and manifest that naturally through growing to completion in our lifetime, living in the Kingdom, Adam and Eve created a fallen lineage where Satan is at the top, creating the kingdom of Hell. THIS is why we must all be reborn. Think about it. Why "reborn"? Because we are all born into that Satanic lineage.
This is why Jesus came, as the True Adam, to restore Adam's failure. Through unity with Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, we are reborn into God's lineage SPIRITUALLY. Our spiritual connection with Lucifer - the one created by the fall of Adam and Eve, is severed, and we then belong to Christ's true lineage. HOWEVER, because Jesus had to offer his own body up through the cross in order to accomplish the conditions for that spiritual salvation, likewise, our own bodies are STILL subject to Satan's influence and attack. In other words, spiritually, we are of Christ's lineage, but in our flesh, we are STILL of the fallen lineage of Adam and Eve. And THAT is why Christ said he would return, and why the Second Coming is necessary.
The issues around the spread of the Word through out the world are a different topic, but the fact that the Second Coming is when the salvation of our fleshly lineage is accomplished is born out by Paul's words. Among many scriptures, this one is very telling: "Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies."
In other words, when Christ returns, we will receive COMPLETE adoption into God's lineage, by our flesh being returned to God's lineage, and then our flesh and the flesh of subsequent generations will be 'redeemed'.
In my understanding, this is the reason why Christ must return in the flesh.
Those are my thoughts on this very deep and delicate topic. Obviously, there is a lot more to it, but the framework I've outlined above explains many things that otherwise don't make sense in the scripture.
I hope you'll think about these things and pray on them, and ask God about them. In any case, I thank you for responding to my comment and sharing your thoughts on the Adam and Eve situation. None of us understands perfectly, but by sharing, and praying, we can all improve our grasp of the Truth.
Thank you Bekind! Glad to get your thoughts and input!
There are obviously lots of different ways that people interpret and understand what scripture is attempting to tell us. Let me see if I can engage with what you have written here to explain a bit more clearly my viewpoint.
Firstly, the syntax may have been ambiguous, but what I meant to write was that The devil seduced the woman and used her to destroy Adam - not that the woman Eve destroyed Adam. That's what the devil did. The devil, in my understanding, is Satan who was originally the archangel Lucifer. In the process of the Fall, Lucifer fell to become Satan, and both Adam and Eve fell to become 'reborn' under Satan as fallen beings.
I suspect we are in agreement about some things. E.g. Adam was the one that was given the commandment, and ultimately, the responsibility lies with him. This is the reason why Christ comes as man (and not as a woman).
However, the scripture does not indicate that Adam was literally with Eve (in Eve's presence) when she fell, and I believe that is not the case. I do, however, agree that if Adam had had his wits about him more, then he would have noticed Eve's behavior going off track, and could have taken steps to prevent the situation before it reached tipping point. (In my understanding, the process of tempting Eve did not happen in one hour or one day, but over time, as Lucifer got closer and closer to Eve, sowing doubt in her mind and slowly seducing her to "eat the fruit".
Also, even if Eve fell by eating the fruit, then Adam still had a responsibility to keep faith in the commandment and reject her advances.
Neither of them is blameless, obviously. Both of them were responsible to keep faith in God and God's word, and both of them failed. However, the ultimate responsibility lies with Adam, because Adam was to be the Lord over Creation in God's place (as God;s son and representative, I mean), and in the family unit, the man is meant to be the subject, and the woman, to unite with him.
I'm so glad that you have obviously given this topic some thought. In my view, most believers don't really reflect on or understand very clearly the reality of the Fall and what the scripture is trying to tell us.
In existing theology, there remain numerous unresolved problems that need to be untangled, clarified and understood in a unified manner.
For example, how is it possible that Lucifer, a good being created by God, could fall to become Satan? What was the nature of the fruit and the "tree" on which it grew? Symbolic, literal? And why on earth would Adam or Eve eat the fruit when they KNEW that it would kill them? What could they have desired more than even life itself? Why did God, a father with love, put a "fruit" and a tree in the middle of the Garden where his children could perish by eating it? What loving parent would do that? How was it possible for Adam and Eve to fall if they themselves were pure and had no evil?
The key to all this are a few things that need to be understood, imo.
One, that all living beings created by God go through a growing process from birth or conception to maturity and completion. In the case of creation, that growing process is automatic. But in the case of human beings, created to be God's children, it isn't automatic. It actually requires human beings to exercise our OWN responsibility.
Physically, our flesh grows to maturity and completion (when full reproduction of the next generation becomes possible) automatically, through a combination of the right elements: Air, warmth, light, (+) elements, and water, food, activity (-) elements. Together, these combine in our body and it grows automatically. But notice that the (+) elements are there basically without any effort on our part (provided as part of the environment). But the (-) elements require us to gather water and food, and do activity, through our own effort.
Our spirits (aka our heart and mind) grows through a similar process, combining love, truth and grace from God (provided from God), with living elements that are generated in our flesh by us acting and living in accordance with God's word. When we live and act in accordance with God's word and way, our bodies generate a healthy, nourishing energetic (spiritual) element that our spirit uses to grow, like spiritual food, etc. But if we act contradicting to God's word and way, then our flesh generates toxic, destructive energetic element, that cripples our heart and spirit, and deforms them over time, so that they do not function properly.
Adam and Eve were created and most of us imagine they were created as adults, presto. But every living thing in the universe is born and grows. We can therefore understand that Adam and Eve were born in some form, their flesh was born from flesh (aka "soil"), but at some point, God breathed Life (spirit) into them.
During their growing process, growing to full maturity, they would be vulnerable to going off track IF some force that was stronger than their inherent but immature goodness came along. That was why God gave the commandment. To protect them. If a power of temptation came along, from Lucifer for example, who had lost his way, it might overpower their inherent but immature goodness. BUT if they kept the power of faith in the commandment, then the power of their inherent but immature goodness PLUS the power of faith would be stronger than the power of the temptation.
Adam and Eve had to keep their faith, reject any temptation, and then they would have safely traversed the period of growing and maturing, and then reached perfection of the heart and spirit, wherein their love with God was completed and perfect. A human being whose heart is perfectly mature becomes one with God and becomes inseparable from God, and cannot sin. We know this because this is what Jesus accomplished. He too was born pure but immature like Adam, born of the holy spirit from God even though his flesh was from his physical lineage. but her grew in maturity, in understanding through many trials, to perfect himself as the first and original True Adam.
Understanding that human responsibility is a KEY part of God's plan for us, individually and as a whole, and the key reason for the Fall (failure in responsibility by both Adam and Eve) is critical for putting together all the pieces of the puzzle.
And because Adam fell WITH Eve, under Lucifer's influence, they actually founded a fallen lineage, that manifests Satan's nature (sin) and Satan's characteristics (conflict, division, hate, etc), a lineage that passes that nature down to all subsequent generations.
How did Adam and Eve fall? There were TWO dimensions. One was the spiritual fall, when Eve 'ate the fruit' with Lucifer, a spiritual being, and Two, the physical or fleshly fall, when Eve took the fruit and ate it with Adam.
Instead of achieving a true lineage that is one with God's purpose and God's love, where God is the sovereign, and wherein all descendants would inherit God's love and nature and manifest that naturally through growing to completion in our lifetime, living in the Kingdom, Adam and Eve created a fallen lineage where Satan is at the top, creating the kingdom of Hell. THIS is why we must all be reborn. Think about it. Why "reborn"? Because we are all born into that Satanic lineage.
This is why Jesus came, as the True Adam, to restore Adam's failure. Through unity with Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, we are reborn into God's lineage SPIRITUALLY. Our spiritual connection with Lucifer - the one created by the fall of Adam and Eve, is severed, and we then belong to Christ's true lineage. HOWEVER, because Jesus had to offer his own body up through the cross in order to accomplish the conditions for that spiritual salvation, likewise, our own bodies are STILL subject to Satan's influence and attack. In other words, spiritually, we are of Christ's lineage, but in our flesh, we are STILL of the fallen lineage of Adam and Eve. And THAT is why Christ said he would return, and why the Second Coming is necessary.
The issues around the spread of the Word through out the world are a different topic, but the fact that the Second Coming is when the salvation of our fleshly lineage is accomplished is born out by Paul's words. Among many scriptures, this one is very telling: "Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies."
In other words, when Christ returns, we will receive COMPLETE adoption into God's lineage, by our flesh being returned to God's lineage, and then our flesh and the flesh of subsequent generations will be 'redeemed'.
In my understanding, this is the reason why Christ must return in the flesh.
Those are my thoughts on this very deep and delicate topic. Obviously, there is a lot more to it, but the framework I've outlined above explains many things that otherwise don't make sense in the scripture.
I hope you'll think about these things and pray on them, and ask God about them. In any case, I thank you for responding to my comment and sharing your thoughts on the Adam and Eve situation. None of us understands perfectly, but by sharing, and praying, we can all improve our grasp of the Truth.
Many blessings. FI