Something important I think the board needs to hear to help keep this war in perspective:
T total depravity: we are inherently sinful
U unconditional atonement: we need to pay nothing for forgiveness (indeed we cannot)
L limited atonement: not all are saved
I irresistible grace: once called, your eyes will be open, you won’t be able to shut them anymore
P perseverance of the saints: we will face difficulties in this world, since our enemies consist of our own selves, other sinners and the devil himself.
I say this because fixing our government (even permanently) does not solve the God sized hole in our hearts, and there’s no good within ourselves apart from God. This is important to remember as we continue the battle, to know none of us earned salvation or righteousness so we ought to show grace for those not yet awake.
And that, my friends, is true strength.
I consider myself to be a 6-pointer.
I fully agree with TULIP.
Tulip is laser focused on what God has done and will do.
However, there is another side to the story and it is well supported in Scripture.
Here's just two: Jesus said, "unless YOU repent, you will likewise perish." Paul wrote, "therefore knowing the fear of the LORD, we persuade men."
God's Word presents two pictures to us, from two different perspectives. From my perspective, there was a day when I made a cognitive decision to surrender my life and my will to Jesus Christ. From God's perspective, He made that decision first on my behalf: "He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world to be Holy and blameless in His sight."
Therefore, TULIP only tells one side of the story: God's side. But we must account for that other side: Man's side.
Which is it? Yes. It's both. But that doesn't make sense. Exactly!
Tulip strips us of any right to take pride, or to boast in our salvation. Yet if we reject Christ, the responsibility for our rebellion falls squarely on us.
We must accept both sides, even though in our minds they do not reconcile. Both are clearly taught in the Bible. We fill in that gap with faith, knowing that the Creator of the Universe will always do what's right. His ways, are not our ways. And His thoughts are far above our thoughts.
So we can bring the Gospel to people and call them to repent as if their salvation depends upon us. But if they reject Christ, we can fall on God's sovereignty in election because their salvation is also dependent upon His choice.
Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God. Who has known the mind of the LORD, or who has been His counselor? Who has ever given to God that He should repay him? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen!
I completely agree. TULIP is meant to drive against catholic theology of man based salvation with an assist from Jesus. This absolutely does not absolve us of responsibility. 👍
No true Catholic believe’s in man based salvation. We are saved by grace through faith—as a Catholic convert, this is squarely what the Church teaches. The Catholic view, however, is that our actions demonstrate our faith. I can’t run around killing people, but saying I have faith (better translated from Greek as trust). I have to live my life following Jesus and God’s laws.
Jesus did the saving, I have to accept this by living my life accordingly, otherwise I have the risk of losing Jesus’s saving grace. I do NOT save myself.
Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.
Here’s the problem with Catholicism, and what makes it hard. The hard part is that 99% of Catholicism is fine, very little issues. The problem I have is the 1% problem is a snow ball effect into an avalanche. There are things that the pope can say (I know not everything, but particular times in history) that can be counted to be worthy of the same honor as God’s word (the Jews to the same with the Talmud).
“Praying to the Saints” meaning asking a saint to pray for you, like you would ask a friend to pray for you is also wrong. The Bible isn’t unclear on this.
3 examples:
Saul, a necromancer, and Samuel (post death). Saul calls up Samuel’s spirit to ask him to ask God for wisdom in an upcoming battle, Samuel instead punishes him for the use of the necromancer and tells him why God won’t speak to him through the prophets.
The story of Lazarus where the one who wronged him wanted to save himself, was denied, said at least let me tell my family, and it is said, if they will not believe the prophets, will they believe you?
Isaiah 8:19
[19] And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?
If you can lose salvation based on your behavior, then it’s based on your works. I don’t see how this idea is compatible with grace.
So if I violate the Ten Commandments, I’m still saved? My actions don’t matter? I don’t have to choose salvation (and by extension live according to Christ’s example)?
Grace is a gift freely given. I can still say “no thanks” to the gift.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/depravity-yes-total-depravity-no-way
Man is sinful beyond self-salvation. The idea of total depravity can actually be pretty easily seen in the Bible. See here how God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, maybe the idea of the how is not explained, but the why is. So the how shows us that God didn’t make Pharaoh evil, he was already evil, but God had removed his restraining hand from pharaoh’s heart that allowed him to become much more evil very quickly, why? Because man (apart from God) is (louder for the people in the back!) totally depraved.
Romans 9:15-23
*[15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” [21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—*
More examples would be when the Bible says, he gave them over to the desires of the flesh.
If I’m wrong, then you by default say that God made these people sin, but the Bible says and God says that God cannot make you sin, he only puts you through tests with a way to escape.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2011/11/st-francis-de-sales-argument-against-total-depravity-and-for-the-indefectibility-of-the-church-psalms-2.html
Here is another one. You are skilled and well trained. I am not. I will let the great St Francis de Sales refute the calvinist position. You'll find within a link to the whole text of the "Catholic Controversy" if there is interest.