I'm often to extend the benefit of the doubt to a lot of people here, a lot more than usual. And I've said some pretty harsh things about leftist Jews. (Basically that they're idolators). But when I get hit like the other guy did, with "Synagogue of Satan" and stuff, well, that's what we have a block button for.
Anyway, onto your question.
This verse you're going to -- what one people miss about the Talmud and this track you are citing as well is that these are conversations. It's famous Rabbis of old, discussing the application of the Torah's laws in absolute minutia. You see both sides are being recorded. Like "Rabbi Rav said this, but Rabbi Shmuel countered with this."
One of the most famous friendly rivalries was between Hillel and Shami, for instance. We don't often arrive at a "correct" answer, but it's debates on the question of applicable law -- even on cases that are not theoretically possible. Think of it like a brain exercise.
There's one anecdote about Rabbis discussing how an animal that is born on one man's property belongs to him, but if it's born on the other side, it belongs to the neighbor. So one asks: "What if a goat is born with two legs on one man's side of the property line, and the other two legs on his neighbor's?"
That's the kind of minutia I'm talking about. Not even possible in the real world, but they still inquire about it.
Onto these phrases -- as to the liability of these sexual sins -- nothing is off base. It's risqué subject matter. But keep in mind, the Torah does outlaw a wide range of sexual activities. A question might be -- if a boy is raped by a homosexual, is he liable? Maybe he is never liable below a certain age? But maybe there's an age where he would be a willing participant? And if he's a willing participant, is he liable? Should that be the age of Bar-Mitzvah, or not? What if he's not physically forced, but is coerced? Or bribed? If bribed, was he in poverty? Should his liability be reduced if it was his only method of getting food?
It may seem odd that a bunch of Rabbis are talking about this, but the Torah doesn't deal with risqué subjects by ignoring them. That's why a lot of people go nuts. "the Bible codifies slavery!" yes it does. Because slavery was a reality. If the Bible said "stop slavery altogether" that sounds fine in 2021. But in 3000 BC, people would say: "Not possible. We can't have functioning farms without at least some slaves." So they made a codification to lessen the burden.
There's even a rule for what to do with captive women. If you read the Iliad, you may recall that the initial fight that starts it all is when Achilles and Agamemnon are arguing about a captive girl. That is, some girls was captured in the skirmish. Agamamenon and Achilles both had one... a girl to keep in their tent, to rape when the move struck them. Agamemnon had to give his girl back to her father, since her father was a priest of Apollo -- and Apollo was sending plagues to the Greeks until they gave the girl back. Agamemnon then takes Achilles's girl as compensation. (She has no connections, unlike the other one). And Achilles, pissed off, boycotts the war.
What were they fighting over? Captured women who would be their rape slaves.
What does the Bible say about this subject?
It says this: You can do it. BUT you have to do it this way. The girl gets captured. You have to cut her hair. Then she wears baggy, unflattering clothes. You give her a month to mourn her family. Then you can take her home and MARRY her.
What changed? Well, she gets married in the end. But something else is happening. If you're a soldier, you captured this beautiful woman. You imagine doing the nasty with her. But first... she has to cut her hair. And wear ugly clothes. And sit in your tent for a month, crying about how she misses her family. And she's no longer as pretty as when you caught her. After all, you cut her hair and gave her ugly clothes. What might many a soldier do in this situation?
After a few days, you might just say: "Okay, okay, that's enough. Don't cry anymore. Go home. "
That gives her a better shot of that than if she was a captive of the Greeks.
It seems weird to us, but we're thinking of 21st century war, not what it was like in the ancient world. the Bible (and by extension, the Talmud) confronts these uncomfortable subjects, and works their way through them.
thanks for the details and and taking the time to explain. as you mentioned, it really does seem to be about 'minutia'. which once again, I find strange/obsessive, and based in 'this world' rather than looking beyond to heaven. the writing also reminds me a lot of lawyers-how they argue their cases, and make a game of words.
but like you said, I'm looking at it from a 21st century Christian perspective, so difficult to comprehend the different layers and history.
I tried listening to a rabbi explain it, but felt like the video was more about his personality than the book. so maybe I can find an audio version to go through on my own time. might understand it better that way, and your reply gives me some context to go with:)
My father has some volumes of Talmud translations. I took it off the shelf, opened it to a page at random and it was very much like reading a legal text. That's why I find it frustrating when someone cites some of the saucier anecdotes and then implies that the entire Talmud is made of stuff like that.
Judaism often moves away towards too much discussion of the next world (Shamayim, or Heaven) in favor of this one for a couple reasons.
One is we're here now, and we need to focus on what we're doing here instead of the next world.
Two is a contrast to Egypt, which held the Israelites as slaved. The Egyptians were obsessed with death. Their holy book was "The Book of the Dead." Their monuments we think of today -- the pyramids -- are giant tombs. Judaism was to focus on life and living rather than death and the afterlife.
Still, there are some afterlife traditions that even I was ignorant about, but I found some Rabbis who discuss it. You can find some on the website "Torahanytime.com"
thanks again for another interesting explanation and website. and yes, the type of writing definitely had that legal tone to it, so sure it confuses most readers, perhaps that's the point? Jesus taught in parables so true followers would be able to understand...so maybe this is similar...
was fascinated with the Egyptians when younger because of the cats;) then King Tut came to America, and I was mesmerized. it really is some different stuff. it was like a slow introduction to the occult. no wonder schools have so many books about it.
Yes, that's part of what makes the Talmud so confusing. And why they always say you need a teacher when you study it.
The Tanach (Torah/Bible) is much more accessible. Similar to the gospels. There are stories that can access all readers. Children and scholars and all in between can both discuss the significance of Noah's ark or the golden calf. They'll discuss it at different levels of comprehension, but they can get the basis.
The Talmud though is more for a certain set. There's some stories, but even the stories in the Talmud are heavy with symbolism and "you need to know this so you can understand that."
I recall one Rabbi discussing a story / passage that was heavy with symbolism. Like "A Frog became a Tree which became a Bird, which lay an egg and if I didn't see it I wouldn't have believed it." When he offered his explanation (what frog and bird and tree meant) ... let's just say any guesses I had to what it was about at the start were completely in the dark.
I'm often to extend the benefit of the doubt to a lot of people here, a lot more than usual. And I've said some pretty harsh things about leftist Jews. (Basically that they're idolators). But when I get hit like the other guy did, with "Synagogue of Satan" and stuff, well, that's what we have a block button for.
Anyway, onto your question.
This verse you're going to -- what one people miss about the Talmud and this track you are citing as well is that these are conversations. It's famous Rabbis of old, discussing the application of the Torah's laws in absolute minutia. You see both sides are being recorded. Like "Rabbi Rav said this, but Rabbi Shmuel countered with this."
One of the most famous friendly rivalries was between Hillel and Shami, for instance. We don't often arrive at a "correct" answer, but it's debates on the question of applicable law -- even on cases that are not theoretically possible. Think of it like a brain exercise.
There's one anecdote about Rabbis discussing how an animal that is born on one man's property belongs to him, but if it's born on the other side, it belongs to the neighbor. So one asks: "What if a goat is born with two legs on one man's side of the property line, and the other two legs on his neighbor's?"
That's the kind of minutia I'm talking about. Not even possible in the real world, but they still inquire about it.
Onto these phrases -- as to the liability of these sexual sins -- nothing is off base. It's risqué subject matter. But keep in mind, the Torah does outlaw a wide range of sexual activities. A question might be -- if a boy is raped by a homosexual, is he liable? Maybe he is never liable below a certain age? But maybe there's an age where he would be a willing participant? And if he's a willing participant, is he liable? Should that be the age of Bar-Mitzvah, or not? What if he's not physically forced, but is coerced? Or bribed? If bribed, was he in poverty? Should his liability be reduced if it was his only method of getting food?
It may seem odd that a bunch of Rabbis are talking about this, but the Torah doesn't deal with risqué subjects by ignoring them. That's why a lot of people go nuts. "the Bible codifies slavery!" yes it does. Because slavery was a reality. If the Bible said "stop slavery altogether" that sounds fine in 2021. But in 3000 BC, people would say: "Not possible. We can't have functioning farms without at least some slaves." So they made a codification to lessen the burden.
There's even a rule for what to do with captive women. If you read the Iliad, you may recall that the initial fight that starts it all is when Achilles and Agamemnon are arguing about a captive girl. That is, some girls was captured in the skirmish. Agamamenon and Achilles both had one... a girl to keep in their tent, to rape when the move struck them. Agamemnon had to give his girl back to her father, since her father was a priest of Apollo -- and Apollo was sending plagues to the Greeks until they gave the girl back. Agamemnon then takes Achilles's girl as compensation. (She has no connections, unlike the other one). And Achilles, pissed off, boycotts the war.
What were they fighting over? Captured women who would be their rape slaves.
What does the Bible say about this subject?
It says this: You can do it. BUT you have to do it this way. The girl gets captured. You have to cut her hair. Then she wears baggy, unflattering clothes. You give her a month to mourn her family. Then you can take her home and MARRY her.
What changed? Well, she gets married in the end. But something else is happening. If you're a soldier, you captured this beautiful woman. You imagine doing the nasty with her. But first... she has to cut her hair. And wear ugly clothes. And sit in your tent for a month, crying about how she misses her family. And she's no longer as pretty as when you caught her. After all, you cut her hair and gave her ugly clothes. What might many a soldier do in this situation?
After a few days, you might just say: "Okay, okay, that's enough. Don't cry anymore. Go home. "
That gives her a better shot of that than if she was a captive of the Greeks.
It seems weird to us, but we're thinking of 21st century war, not what it was like in the ancient world. the Bible (and by extension, the Talmud) confronts these uncomfortable subjects, and works their way through them.
thanks for the details and and taking the time to explain. as you mentioned, it really does seem to be about 'minutia'. which once again, I find strange/obsessive, and based in 'this world' rather than looking beyond to heaven. the writing also reminds me a lot of lawyers-how they argue their cases, and make a game of words.
but like you said, I'm looking at it from a 21st century Christian perspective, so difficult to comprehend the different layers and history.
I tried listening to a rabbi explain it, but felt like the video was more about his personality than the book. so maybe I can find an audio version to go through on my own time. might understand it better that way, and your reply gives me some context to go with:)
My father has some volumes of Talmud translations. I took it off the shelf, opened it to a page at random and it was very much like reading a legal text. That's why I find it frustrating when someone cites some of the saucier anecdotes and then implies that the entire Talmud is made of stuff like that.
Judaism often moves away towards too much discussion of the next world (Shamayim, or Heaven) in favor of this one for a couple reasons.
One is we're here now, and we need to focus on what we're doing here instead of the next world.
Two is a contrast to Egypt, which held the Israelites as slaved. The Egyptians were obsessed with death. Their holy book was "The Book of the Dead." Their monuments we think of today -- the pyramids -- are giant tombs. Judaism was to focus on life and living rather than death and the afterlife.
Still, there are some afterlife traditions that even I was ignorant about, but I found some Rabbis who discuss it. You can find some on the website "Torahanytime.com"
thanks again for another interesting explanation and website. and yes, the type of writing definitely had that legal tone to it, so sure it confuses most readers, perhaps that's the point? Jesus taught in parables so true followers would be able to understand...so maybe this is similar... was fascinated with the Egyptians when younger because of the cats;) then King Tut came to America, and I was mesmerized. it really is some different stuff. it was like a slow introduction to the occult. no wonder schools have so many books about it.
Yes, that's part of what makes the Talmud so confusing. And why they always say you need a teacher when you study it.
The Tanach (Torah/Bible) is much more accessible. Similar to the gospels. There are stories that can access all readers. Children and scholars and all in between can both discuss the significance of Noah's ark or the golden calf. They'll discuss it at different levels of comprehension, but they can get the basis.
The Talmud though is more for a certain set. There's some stories, but even the stories in the Talmud are heavy with symbolism and "you need to know this so you can understand that."
I recall one Rabbi discussing a story / passage that was heavy with symbolism. Like "A Frog became a Tree which became a Bird, which lay an egg and if I didn't see it I wouldn't have believed it." When he offered his explanation (what frog and bird and tree meant) ... let's just say any guesses I had to what it was about at the start were completely in the dark.