Not sure why this would be a problem. I also do not know all of the history of the area the OP lives in.
To me this is part of what a government exists for ensuring the safety of the resources and mechanisms they collect taxes from you to do.
Think of it as you already paid for this service. What they are doing is inspecting the faucets and connections in your home to make sure it is connected to the drinking/tap water and not the gray/waste/sewage system.
An important question to ask yourself might be "Why are they doing this?" Has their been reports where it has not been separated? Did some moron contractor/plumber in the area connect a waste water and top feed?
Personally I would suggest getting your water tested ASAP and then if your civil water authority is trustworthy follow up with the survey.
As previously stated, the issue is not that they want to do their jobs, but that they believe they are entitled to enter your home because someonesomewheremight be doing something they shouldn't.
No one has the right to enter your home without reasonable suspicion of an emergency or a court-issued warrant. Short of that, you can choose to let them in, but, you are not required to.
There are many reasons you may not want them in your home, such as the reasons expressed by OP, which are perfectly reasonable. If he is doing something wrong, let the WD prove it to a court, or at least show reasonable probability, and get legal authority to enter, rather than pretending they already have it for everyone at all times.
Again I am not sure about the local authority of the OP as I stated. I also stated if they are trustworthy, lastly I suggested getting the water tested themselves and after that fill out the survey. I never stated they have the right to enter a home uninvited and they did not either they said they would schedule a time with you.
Now the OP’s civil authority might be malicious and this is nice language but will be actually be much worse actions and an abuse of power.
The letter reads to me like a typical professional letter. I get sales emails more aggressive than this.
The difference is your tax dollars aren't subsidizing the aggressive sales letters, and no salesman will claim that they have a right to enter your private residence to do their job.
Even if they are trustworthy, OP has the right to refuse it for whatever reason he/she wishes. Rights are not conditional. I'm not saying OP should, necessarily, refuse them entry, but I am saying if he or she doesn't want them in the house, they don't have the right to enter, without probable cause.
Also, it's worth noting that IL is super corrupt, even outside the city. I believe IL consistently ranks #1 in corrupt states, and Chicago either 2nd or 3rd (DC is always 1st) in corrupt cities. The metrics used are the number of public officials convicted of a crime, per capita.
Yes, Illinois is corrupt to the core. We have way more units of government than any other state, and the bullshit seeps into every one of them. It’s entirely possible that they are actually concerned about improper piping connections, but experience tells me they’re just looking for a reason to fine people for not pulling permits when they had work done or something.
the home is inspected at the time of sale. any non compliant, irregular, non working issues would be discovered at that time.
only if a homeowner is engaging in major remodeling on his own and/or without use of licensed contractor/professionals might he introduce a substandard or non compliant issue, but it's still his own problem (would invalidate insurance) and not addressed by a random survey. this is egregious bureaucratic overreach.
Thank you for your comment, this is what I had wondered about, perhaps the previous homeowners doing something wrong. My dad had a commercial property where his tenants added a bathroom. He tried to do something with the building later, and the city noticed the bathroom wasn’t on the original plans. He got hit with an almost $4k fine for not pulling a permit, even though he didn’t know they had put in the bathroom at the time. That’s more along the lines of what I was worried about, because I haven’t done anything to the house myself.
This is tricky, because most courts (especially in IL) will rule that they can be on your property to services public utilities without your consent.
You can of course refuse to comply and make them work harder for the information they need, and they can't really do anything about it, afaik. Like with the census, you can send it back unfilled, and if they come to your door, you can refuse to answer, and they will eventually leave you alone (although this time around, because of the covid timing, I never even got a call or a visit). But, you have to ask if it's worth it. IL is corrupt to the core, and I'm not sure inconveniencing a couple low-level government employees is really going to change it.
Either way, without a warrant they can't "require" any information from you. Period. But that doesn't mean they can't legally come onto your property to get what they need. But they certainly can't come inside the property without a warrant.
They want me to list every faucet and everything I have IN my house, so I would assume they’d try to come inside. Would anything that a previous homeowner had done show up in the inspection from when we bought the place? The last thing I want is some fine for something someone else did. Just seems like overreach.
My city recently tried to do something similar where they wanted to do an inside home inspection for property valuations. I told them to pound sand. Still waiting to see the new valuation so I can sue if it went up punitively.
The State DOJ actually said if you refuse the interior inspection you forfeit your right to any appeals process for your home valuation. Of course, to try to scare everyone into allowing it. But if they raise the valuation BECAUSE you didn't allow an interior inspection, and you can prove it, that's a criminal offense, and no longer subject to a standard appeal process.
This applies in your case as well, because legally, they have no right to inspect anything inside your home unless the court deems it is a public safety concern or an emergency (fire, building falling apart, etc). IL is tricky since most judges are corrupt, but if you're wiling to bring it to a federal court, you'll likely win if they try to extort you by threatening or taking punitive measures for not allowing them inside without a warrant.
The issue here is that in this country we don't accept "guilty until proven innocent."
If they have reasonable evidence that is what is happening, they can get a court order to enter the home and inspect. They don't get to do mass inspections because there's a chance that someone might be doing something they shouldn't.
Actually, as a public utility, they cannot refuse service without cause. Not letting them inside your house to inspect when there's no suspicion that anything needs to be inspected is not cause.
Yes, it is a big deal. If no one exercises their right to privacy, they lose it. People are free to make the choice, but "proof of public safety" is BS unless there is reasonable suspicion that the particular home they wish to enter may be problematic. People are not guilty until proven innocent. Homes are inspected by the city when built, and privately (at the very least) when they change hands. To be a plumber you have to have training and in many, permission from the state or city in which you are working. Anyone could be cooking meth, does that mean law enforcement has a right to inspect everyone's basement?
"Let me see your phone to make sure you're not a terrorist."
"Have I done anything?"
"No, but you could be a terrorist, so show us all of your messages. And empty your purse while you're at it, you may have a gun and also be a felon."
They should do what they can to ensure proper plumbing, but just because they're a public utility does not mean they have the right to enter your home whenever they want to, which is what they're implying in the letter.
If it were me, I would simply decline and ask them to explain why they may think it's an issue with my house. If they have no reason to believe it is a problem, and are just "checking to make sure," I would say, "thanks for the offer, but I'm all set."
Very likely, they won't even bother pursuing it, and have probably been instructed internally not to put up a fight with people who refuse. If they do, you can simply explain that if they can't provide a specific reason other than "checking to see if there is a problem" they don't need to inspect anything, and if they disagree they will need authorization from a court with a written warrant.
If they threaten to cut the water if I don't comply, I would first try to get someone in the town or city to resolve it, otherwise I would file criminal suit against them, since it is illegal to extort someone to give up their rights. If I went down that route, I'd be prepared to go without water for a little bit, stock up, stay with friends/family, etc. It's not likely to go that far, but if it does, the law doesn't stop people from breaking it, it only ensures accountability for breaking it. Worst case scenario, it has to go to a district appeals court, but since it is completely illegal to cut off a public service for exercising rights, they will be found in the wrong -- it's just a matter of time.
The above is a worse-case scenario, but it's something you'd have to be prepared for if you wanted to go that route. Again, I'm not suggesting this is the right choice for everyone, but it is always an option to exercise our inherent rights.
Provide information "to the best of your abilities". Since you are not opening walls, did not build the place, and are not a "licensed" plumber(probably), I am not sure how any inaccuracies could be a problem.
Do some research on what is a red flag to this "cross connection" business.
kitchen sink, single bath, one toilet, clothes washer, no outside faucets.
Unless you are filling ag sprayers from a non airgapped city water source, I am not sure what an urban home owner could be doing to have something sucked back into the pressurized water system.
Call them up and ask what would prompt an inspection before you do anything. I'm sure they expect you to have sinks & toilets. Meanwhile, if it were me, I'd make sure my survey indicates that i REJECT any non-potable water sources to co-mingle with my safe water supply!! They don't want to do the WORK/EXPENSE to expand properly, it sounds like they're entertaining shortcuts and are seeking permissions.
Just install a water tank outside your house that won't allow water from your system to flow back into the municipal system. Use a float or level sensor in your tank to control a valve from their system to shut off their supply when you don't need it. They would have no need to inspect anything past the outdoor tank.
Actually now that you mention that, there should already be a check valve right by the water meter that prevents water from flowing back into the city water. As the meter is placed right where the city water comes into the house, they don’t need to know a damn thing about what I have going on inside. Thank you!
This is not something unreasonable for them to have as a concern. For example, city water companies in many instances have their own well, which they test for water quality. (always debatable though, to me) When we were on city water (as opposed to being on our own lovely well, now) we had strong communications from the water company that, being in an agricultural area with livestock water tanks etc which were filled with hoses, to be extremely careful about backwash from hoses in livestock tanks - when the water was turned off at the faucet the hose HAD to already be outside of the water tank, because, the hose would after a few moments of being turned off, reverse the water flow back in the city system. Weird~but there were a couple times when this exact kind of bacterial issue ("bad water") contaminated the city water.
It is not an unreasonable concern. It is unreasonable to state that anyone is required to let you into their home when you have no proof or even suspicion that they are doing anything wrong.
Mass surveillance is illegal.
Unwarranted searches are illegal.
Sobriety checkpoints are illegal.
Entering private property without consent, and without court-granted approval or reasonable suspicion of an emergency is illegal.
I am not saying they are actively or consciously trying to do anything nefarious, but if OP doesn't want random government employees in his home, it is his right to make them first prove cause to be there. If he is worried about his plumbing, he can also just hire a private plumber of his choosing to do an inspection.
Not sure why this would be a problem. I also do not know all of the history of the area the OP lives in.
To me this is part of what a government exists for ensuring the safety of the resources and mechanisms they collect taxes from you to do.
Think of it as you already paid for this service. What they are doing is inspecting the faucets and connections in your home to make sure it is connected to the drinking/tap water and not the gray/waste/sewage system.
An important question to ask yourself might be "Why are they doing this?" Has their been reports where it has not been separated? Did some moron contractor/plumber in the area connect a waste water and top feed?
Personally I would suggest getting your water tested ASAP and then if your civil water authority is trustworthy follow up with the survey.
As previously stated, the issue is not that they want to do their jobs, but that they believe they are entitled to enter your home because someone somewhere might be doing something they shouldn't.
No one has the right to enter your home without reasonable suspicion of an emergency or a court-issued warrant. Short of that, you can choose to let them in, but, you are not required to.
There are many reasons you may not want them in your home, such as the reasons expressed by OP, which are perfectly reasonable. If he is doing something wrong, let the WD prove it to a court, or at least show reasonable probability, and get legal authority to enter, rather than pretending they already have it for everyone at all times.
Again I am not sure about the local authority of the OP as I stated. I also stated if they are trustworthy, lastly I suggested getting the water tested themselves and after that fill out the survey. I never stated they have the right to enter a home uninvited and they did not either they said they would schedule a time with you.
Now the OP’s civil authority might be malicious and this is nice language but will be actually be much worse actions and an abuse of power.
The letter reads to me like a typical professional letter. I get sales emails more aggressive than this.
The difference is your tax dollars aren't subsidizing the aggressive sales letters, and no salesman will claim that they have a right to enter your private residence to do their job.
Even if they are trustworthy, OP has the right to refuse it for whatever reason he/she wishes. Rights are not conditional. I'm not saying OP should, necessarily, refuse them entry, but I am saying if he or she doesn't want them in the house, they don't have the right to enter, without probable cause.
Also, it's worth noting that IL is super corrupt, even outside the city. I believe IL consistently ranks #1 in corrupt states, and Chicago either 2nd or 3rd (DC is always 1st) in corrupt cities. The metrics used are the number of public officials convicted of a crime, per capita.
Yes, Illinois is corrupt to the core. We have way more units of government than any other state, and the bullshit seeps into every one of them. It’s entirely possible that they are actually concerned about improper piping connections, but experience tells me they’re just looking for a reason to fine people for not pulling permits when they had work done or something.
It’s all fun and games until they shut off your water.
the home is inspected at the time of sale. any non compliant, irregular, non working issues would be discovered at that time.
only if a homeowner is engaging in major remodeling on his own and/or without use of licensed contractor/professionals might he introduce a substandard or non compliant issue, but it's still his own problem (would invalidate insurance) and not addressed by a random survey. this is egregious bureaucratic overreach.
Thank you for your comment, this is what I had wondered about, perhaps the previous homeowners doing something wrong. My dad had a commercial property where his tenants added a bathroom. He tried to do something with the building later, and the city noticed the bathroom wasn’t on the original plans. He got hit with an almost $4k fine for not pulling a permit, even though he didn’t know they had put in the bathroom at the time. That’s more along the lines of what I was worried about, because I haven’t done anything to the house myself.
First, I'd get out of Illinois.
TN in less than 2 months, God willing.
This is tricky, because most courts (especially in IL) will rule that they can be on your property to services public utilities without your consent.
You can of course refuse to comply and make them work harder for the information they need, and they can't really do anything about it, afaik. Like with the census, you can send it back unfilled, and if they come to your door, you can refuse to answer, and they will eventually leave you alone (although this time around, because of the covid timing, I never even got a call or a visit). But, you have to ask if it's worth it. IL is corrupt to the core, and I'm not sure inconveniencing a couple low-level government employees is really going to change it.
Either way, without a warrant they can't "require" any information from you. Period. But that doesn't mean they can't legally come onto your property to get what they need. But they certainly can't come inside the property without a warrant.
They want me to list every faucet and everything I have IN my house, so I would assume they’d try to come inside. Would anything that a previous homeowner had done show up in the inspection from when we bought the place? The last thing I want is some fine for something someone else did. Just seems like overreach.
Oh yeah, you can 100% refuse that.
My city recently tried to do something similar where they wanted to do an inside home inspection for property valuations. I told them to pound sand. Still waiting to see the new valuation so I can sue if it went up punitively.
The State DOJ actually said if you refuse the interior inspection you forfeit your right to any appeals process for your home valuation. Of course, to try to scare everyone into allowing it. But if they raise the valuation BECAUSE you didn't allow an interior inspection, and you can prove it, that's a criminal offense, and no longer subject to a standard appeal process.
This applies in your case as well, because legally, they have no right to inspect anything inside your home unless the court deems it is a public safety concern or an emergency (fire, building falling apart, etc). IL is tricky since most judges are corrupt, but if you're wiling to bring it to a federal court, you'll likely win if they try to extort you by threatening or taking punitive measures for not allowing them inside without a warrant.
Sounds like they just want to make sure the city water is only piped to city water.
The issue here is that in this country we don't accept "guilty until proven innocent."
If they have reasonable evidence that is what is happening, they can get a court order to enter the home and inspect. They don't get to do mass inspections because there's a chance that someone might be doing something they shouldn't.
Then they should be able to shut off your city water. That's not a right, you can just go to the store to buy your water.
Actually, as a public utility, they cannot refuse service without cause. Not letting them inside your house to inspect when there's no suspicion that anything needs to be inspected is not cause.
That is the cause tho, isn't it? They just want proof for public safety.
I get where you're coming from, but at a certain point, is it really that big of a deal?
Yes, it is a big deal. If no one exercises their right to privacy, they lose it. People are free to make the choice, but "proof of public safety" is BS unless there is reasonable suspicion that the particular home they wish to enter may be problematic. People are not guilty until proven innocent. Homes are inspected by the city when built, and privately (at the very least) when they change hands. To be a plumber you have to have training and in many, permission from the state or city in which you are working. Anyone could be cooking meth, does that mean law enforcement has a right to inspect everyone's basement?
"Let me see your phone to make sure you're not a terrorist."
"Have I done anything?"
"No, but you could be a terrorist, so show us all of your messages. And empty your purse while you're at it, you may have a gun and also be a felon."
They should do what they can to ensure proper plumbing, but just because they're a public utility does not mean they have the right to enter your home whenever they want to, which is what they're implying in the letter.
I mostly agree, so what's the solution here? They just have to take your word for it?
I suppose the solution is to use that Tesla valve??
If it were me, I would simply decline and ask them to explain why they may think it's an issue with my house. If they have no reason to believe it is a problem, and are just "checking to make sure," I would say, "thanks for the offer, but I'm all set."
Very likely, they won't even bother pursuing it, and have probably been instructed internally not to put up a fight with people who refuse. If they do, you can simply explain that if they can't provide a specific reason other than "checking to see if there is a problem" they don't need to inspect anything, and if they disagree they will need authorization from a court with a written warrant.
If they threaten to cut the water if I don't comply, I would first try to get someone in the town or city to resolve it, otherwise I would file criminal suit against them, since it is illegal to extort someone to give up their rights. If I went down that route, I'd be prepared to go without water for a little bit, stock up, stay with friends/family, etc. It's not likely to go that far, but if it does, the law doesn't stop people from breaking it, it only ensures accountability for breaking it. Worst case scenario, it has to go to a district appeals court, but since it is completely illegal to cut off a public service for exercising rights, they will be found in the wrong -- it's just a matter of time.
The above is a worse-case scenario, but it's something you'd have to be prepared for if you wanted to go that route. Again, I'm not suggesting this is the right choice for everyone, but it is always an option to exercise our inherent rights.
I would trash it and pretend like you never saw it.
Provide information "to the best of your abilities". Since you are not opening walls, did not build the place, and are not a "licensed" plumber(probably), I am not sure how any inaccuracies could be a problem.
Do some research on what is a red flag to this "cross connection" business.
kitchen sink, single bath, one toilet, clothes washer, no outside faucets.
Unless you are filling ag sprayers from a non airgapped city water source, I am not sure what an urban home owner could be doing to have something sucked back into the pressurized water system.
Call them up and ask what would prompt an inspection before you do anything. I'm sure they expect you to have sinks & toilets. Meanwhile, if it were me, I'd make sure my survey indicates that i REJECT any non-potable water sources to co-mingle with my safe water supply!! They don't want to do the WORK/EXPENSE to expand properly, it sounds like they're entertaining shortcuts and are seeking permissions.
Just install a water tank outside your house that won't allow water from your system to flow back into the municipal system. Use a float or level sensor in your tank to control a valve from their system to shut off their supply when you don't need it. They would have no need to inspect anything past the outdoor tank.
Actually now that you mention that, there should already be a check valve right by the water meter that prevents water from flowing back into the city water. As the meter is placed right where the city water comes into the house, they don’t need to know a damn thing about what I have going on inside. Thank you!
I was actually envisioning a giant four foot air gap between system to make the separation visually apparent.
This is not something unreasonable for them to have as a concern. For example, city water companies in many instances have their own well, which they test for water quality. (always debatable though, to me) When we were on city water (as opposed to being on our own lovely well, now) we had strong communications from the water company that, being in an agricultural area with livestock water tanks etc which were filled with hoses, to be extremely careful about backwash from hoses in livestock tanks - when the water was turned off at the faucet the hose HAD to already be outside of the water tank, because, the hose would after a few moments of being turned off, reverse the water flow back in the city system. Weird~but there were a couple times when this exact kind of bacterial issue ("bad water") contaminated the city water.
It is not an unreasonable concern. It is unreasonable to state that anyone is required to let you into their home when you have no proof or even suspicion that they are doing anything wrong.
I am not saying they are actively or consciously trying to do anything nefarious, but if OP doesn't want random government employees in his home, it is his right to make them first prove cause to be there. If he is worried about his plumbing, he can also just hire a private plumber of his choosing to do an inspection.
Tell them that you have 3,000 faucets for your.... um... agricultural projects.
I KNEW this was some Illinois shit before I saw it was Illinois.
Obviously the correct course of action is to send them a dick pic with the caption, you wanted see my plumbing fixture, well here it is!
Ewwww. So this means some people are drinking from the wrong pipe. Yeah man, have them come look.