There is a nascent movement among certain Q-anon influencer(s) that seeks to revive the 2,000 year old heresy that Christians are still under the Old Testament law. Evidently some folks prefer blog posts and YouTube videos to actually reading their Bibles. This is exactly why our culture is destitute and so easily manipulated; people have no idea how to actually read and study for themselves. Please don't play into (((their))) game.
Edit: For more context, read Acts chapter 15, Galatians (the whole thing), Romans 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8, Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:8-17
I haven't been online much these past two weeks.
Generally my experience in 2020-2021 has been that I see Gnosticism and Zoroastrianism thrown about by people who think they discovered some hidden truth but don't realize they are lending ear to a false gospel in both those teachings.
This is the first I've heard of people wanting to return to Old Testament.
By the way how far are they going with it? Is it only a few provisions ( must be circumcised) or is it fully OT (get your alter ready and start sacrificing on it and keep all Levitical / Deuteronomic laws)?
They purposely keep it very vague and will not commit to speaking about particulars other than to admit that Christ's sacrifice means we are no longer bound to sacrifice animals but that otherwise we are still under Old Testament law. Funny, though; they never study Leviticus to find out what they're getting themselves into. It's all just nonsense. They are unserious but think they are being clever and discovering lost truths and that everybody else is wrong. This is the danger of being overly conspiratorial and contrarian. They even reject the truth that would set them free.
Hey, it's great to see an impassioned response affirming Jesus's deity and the necessity of spiritul warfare, and relying on solid sources like KHouse. Being a c/Christianity moderator, I wanted to try to update you on how this movement is shaping out.
We need to distinguish between those who follow Jesus the Lamb wherever he goes and those who would enslave others again with a yoke of legalism, because both these groups include many of the people studying "Hebrew roots"; yet when the two recognize each other they each have natural animus, and fight to lay claim to be the true bearers of that name. I grew up in traditional churches and still affirm all the creeds and distinctives I've learned, except for one, namely I've been compelled to dissent from certain statements of the Westminster Confession about the ceremonial law. About 20 years ago I realized the natural consequences of the fact that all the OT believers were our forebears and were in full covenant with God and with us: namely, they were our brothers and sisters, and they were not per se followers of the rabbinical and Talmudic Judaism that was one of the two main branches of faith that came from that covenant people. Therefore, when these Israelites offered sacrifices, just as Hebrews says, they were acting in faith just as we do when we offer tithes or share the Lord's table.
Nowadays you're absolutely right that legalists keep their demands vague and often have no idea what they're getting into. In the tradition that Torah has 613 commands, the Jews also say that 240 of them are impossible right now because there is no temple (including all the sacrifices except Passover), but modern "Torah Redux" movements don't talk about that. So just about everybody who's holding their new discovery of some simple mitzvah over your head is doing so for pride and human Brownie points, and you're right it's ironic that the Jews have no respect for someone picking up one or two cute commands (like wearing tzitzith) when they themselves have been trained all their lives that religious Jews have a yoke of all 613 commands. So neither the Christians nor the Jews respect the legalists, and then they think they must be doing legalism right because the whole body of Christ has cut them off like a cancer. But the core is always judging another for failing something one has mastered, when nobody but Jesus could master the whole Torah.
The key is to realize that whenever Paul says "under the law" he's using the word "under" derogatorily to change the base meaning in exactly the same way we do with the suffix "ism": legalism. For Paul, the Torah was a good thing, as it is a way of life for the Jewish people that compares favorably against any other culture's founding documents and way of living; unlike every other culture, the Torah was inspired in such a way that it gives light to every culture, and it also was fully fulfilled by Jesus (there is no command of Torah that Jesus ever disobeyed, abolished, set aside, or neglected in any way). But never in OT or NT was the Torah to be held over another person's head as a yoke of slavery: it was always a guide to teach us how to grow into the moral law. And today we are still learning worldwide how to grow into the fullness of moral law.
So we have legalists (more often Gentile than Jewish) who engage in all this illogic that denies Jesus's fulfillment of Torah on our behalf, and in the year of our Win's history we've done combat with a few of them. But we also have lots more Hebrew-roots believers (probably half a million Jews and millions of Gentiles) who are in the movement out of love and who are learning the ropes, which is that we don't "have to" keep the law (never did), but we are "free to" grow into the law as we desire to please God (always were). This allows us to easily distinguish the two camps: the believers have mastered Romans 14 and have no pressure whatsoever to impose their freedom to grow into the law upon others, while the unbelievers are like (some of) the Pharisees, under such pressure to make converts that the converts inherit double portions of the sonship of Satan from their teachers.
To anon's question, this means that in both groups you typically see acceptance of the easier commands (food, clothing, festivals) but also great vicarious support for the movements in Judaism preparing to build the Third Temple at a moment's notice. (We shouldn't fight over the Temple as it's likely to happen suddenly without our individual control; we should instead be watching the signs, such as the Russia-Iran-Israel war of Ezek. 38-39). I used to wonder how the future temple could be portrayed in the Bible as both good and bad: but it's as simple as the fact that it will be used by both true and false worshippers, until Jesus returns and removes the false. Then whatever he says goes! If Jesus tells me to have a cookout in his honor and follow certain rules about blood-draining and leftovers, you'd better believe I'll obey him! And if he says never to eat meat again, I'll obey him with equal certainty about it being the best for me!
I have no illusions about Medinat Israel, or about its only hope being that there will be a sudden acceptance of Yeshua (Jesus their Messiah, Romans 11). But I also tell people the devil's cabal has infiltrated every major racial and religious group and we should not imbalance our focus upon any. And it's true that legalism among Christians plays into Jewish hands, because (unless they are open to Messiah) their system is legalism itself. But as we learn the beauty of the Torah system of law we take more and more of the Word of God for ourselves and make it a worldwide gift and undercut the Rabbinical Jews' ability to be the sole interpreters of that tradition. This, via the age-old strategy that Paul declassified, will provoke them to such jealousy that many will join back with us, the same covenant people they used to be one with. HTH: I hope you can bookmark c/Christianity for checking in regularly, as topics like these are broadly welcomed.
Would that jealousy motivated a godly response. If our love and our life-transforming fellowship with God does not provoke a sincere desire to honestly investigate the power thereof, I doubt that any degree of Mosaic law-keeping will. Not that I would ever flaunt my freedom in a spiteful way; but as Paul said, (Romans 2:14-15) "When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them..."
(Romans 3:20-22) "For 'no human being will be justified in his sight' by deeds prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith."
I do confess to a certain jealousy of messianic Jews who worship God both in the fulness of Christ and from the wholeness of their own heritage. But then I do not take my salvation so lightly nor consider it something that I should tinker with. It is a deep and profound mystery, why Jesus should deign to reach down to my pitiful state and redeem me, one which I can only trust God with and which my hands can do nothing but corrupt and bring to ruin.
Jesus Christ is not God. He is the Son of God. Very clearly stated and no amount of twisting can make it otherwise. GOD knows who His son is.
"Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever" (Heb. 1:8).
Of course he's also the "Son of God", but all sides of this argument are well-known at c/Christianity. You can drop in there for more. He knows who all his sons and daughters are, and who they aren't.
You Mormon?
Wait, we have influencers? Where have I been?
ikr?
I see it too… Only answer i come up with is strong delusion! Stay strong in the faith my friend!
Precisely.
You will notice arguments that consist of deflection, cognitive dissonance, logical fallacy, and an inability to see what is right in front of them.
I am seeing more demonic activity just this past year than ever before in my entire life. Demons are no longer simply tormenting people or making them sick or addicted; they are now masquerading as the Holy Spirit Himself and convincing their victims of all manner of insane religious nonsense and engaging their hosts to defend them from exposure and to argue on their behalf. It is very difficult to cast out a demon from a person who worships and defends that demon.
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
It is no longer the law, it is the blood of Christ shed on the cross that covers all who would accept his free gift.
Not all will right divide the word. Younwoukd have to be pretty weak and ignorant of the Word to get duped there.
Too many still flock to the popes side and the roman babalonyian crap they comes out of the Vatican.
The Jews certainly would believe that their anticipated messiah would indeed be God if they believed their own pre-Roman scriptures.
Paul did not write the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John or Isaiah or Zechariah or Revelation, and yet all of these declare the Godhood of Christ, and Paul's writings don't even contain the most compelling arguments for the divinity of Jesus. I think Paul assumed that his readers would already get that point and didn't feel much need to belabor it, although he certainly did affirm the concept many times.
Jesus is God
1 Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one. John 10:31-33 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Pierced Jesus, God
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Zec 12:10b ...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
Every knee shall bow Jesus, God
Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Creator Jesus, God
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Col 1:16 For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Saviour Jesus, God
Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Phi 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? Have not I the LORD? And there is no God else beside me; a just God and a saviour; there is none beside me.
“FIRST AND LAST” Jesus, God
Rev 1:11a Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
"I Am" Jesus, God
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.*
Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
John 18:5-6 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he.* And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he,* they went backward, and fell to the ground. (!!!!)
Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he,* ye shall die in your sins.
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
*NOTE: The word “he” does not appear in these Greek texts; it has been added by well-meaning translators in an attempt to provide clarity to the English version. They probably didn’t understand why Jesus would say simply “I am,” and thought that the phrase sounded incomplete without a direct object.
**NOTE: The Hebrew name for God; Jehovah, or possibly Yahweh, is actually derived from the Hebrew words “hayah,” which means “to exist;” and “havah,” which means “to breathe.”
In Whose Name is Salvation? Jesus, God
Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Who Raised Jesus From the Dead? Father? Son? Holy Spirit?
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. [referring to His body]
1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Philippians 2:5-8 Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross.
Without going into the long lists, which can be found at c/Christianity, the issue is not to start with the "God-man" concept that Christian creeds have perhaps pounded too hard, the issue is to learn everything you can about the Messiah so that you can get behind his kingdom and support it. In particular, Is. 52:13-53:12 tells us about a Jewish suffering servant, which might be taken as representing "Israel". But the passage also talks about a group of sinners who received peace through this suffering, and these sinners also represent "Israel". That means the suffering servant is obviously the best of Israel: perhaps the best one man of all Israel. This informs the "Bar Nafle" Talmudic tradition that the Messiah must go through shame and wounding on his path, built solidly on Zechariah and other prophecies. We also know Jewish tradition that the Messiah might arise from among the living (our generation) or from among the dead (an earlier generation, used as an apologetic for Rebbe Schneerson). So the more we study about Jewish tradition of Messiah, the more we see the miraculous in his mission, such that only God could carry it out.
If you narrow the range of your search for truth to just a tiny spot and then complain about not finding anything, I don't know what to tell you. You just read several places where the Bible declares Jesus to be God. Isaiah in particular? Wouldn't Isaiah calling the messiah "Mighty God, Everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6) imply that He might be God? Wouldn't being God imply that He might be prone to performing miracles?
In addition to being God/Man, Jesus was pictured in several places in the Old Testament as the suffering savior Who would die for His peoples' sin. Isaiah 53. Also, on the cross, Jesus quoted the opening line of Psalm 22 in which verse 16 says "they pierced my hands and feet." In Zechariah 12:10 God says "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born."
If you don't believe that Jesus was foretold by the prophets, it might interest you to read the prophet Daniel's predictions concerning Christ in Daniel chapter 9. An excellent discussion of the precision of Jesus's fulfillment of Daniel 9 is found here: https://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/ and another here: https://www.evenatthedoors.com/timeline11palmsunday.html (If the messiah were ever to appear, he would have to have appeared at the exact moment of Jesus's triumphal entry, i.e; Palm Sunday.)
If you don't believe in the historical accounts of Jesus performing miracles, that's your choice. The eyewitnesses recounted what they saw and heard. You and I were not there, so we can choose to believe the reports or not to believe them, but they are the only primary historical sources that reported these events.
Do you believe that rising from the dead on the 3rd day is a miracle and very much points to Christ's deity? Do you believe the resurrection was a hoax? If so, who moved the body? Was it Christ's enemies or His friends? If His enemies, then why could they not produce it and thus prove the fakery? If His friends, then why would the disciples who watched him die suddenly in unison begin preaching Him resurrected, and why would they have inexplicable newfound power and boldness (for a group whose leader was supposedly dead and they themselves certainly in fear of the same fate), accompanied by miracles of healing and other supernatural signs? Were they lying? Did they die for a lie, every one of them tortured and/or imprisoned with every opportunity to recant in order to save themselves?
If the Romans created the Jesus hoax to control the Jews, it seems very evident that this did not work, as the city of Jerusalem was utterly sacked by the Romans in 70 AD in response to the Jewish rebellion of 66 AD. If they sought to create a new religion they could control the people with, then why did they viciously and mercilessly persecute the early church and try to wipe it out?
None of that makes Christ God. Because God made him His son. Why do you think that relationship is so important? Keep your polish beliefs if you want. I'll stick to the truth.
Peter never went to Rome. Not one reference. In fact he got confronted by Paul for copping out.
For more context, read Acts chapter 15, Galatians (the whole thing), Romans 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8, Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:8-17
Don't care. Every man hath a psalm every man a doctrine. Read the Bible, walk humbly with God, seek to do good and get rid of the fear.