The "rapture" is heretical nonsense. Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about the rapture. It says the evil ones will be taken first and cast into eternal fire and damnation... The movie Taken and the novels about the rapture are heresy... Orthodox Christian Teaching on the Rapture: Is the Rapture in the Bible? Question: A friend of mine has been reading the Left Behind books that have all of this stuff about the “Rapture” in them. Is there really going to be a “Rapture” like these books talk about?
Answer: No. The “Rapture” refers to a passage in First Thessalonians 4, where Christians are “caught up” in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” Many Christians believe, and the Left Behind books promote, that this being “caught up” to meet the Lord will occur before the Great Tribulation sometime in the near future. Christians will simply vanish, meet Jesus somewhere in the air, and then return with Him to Heaven to await the end of time.
But notice, in verse 15, Paul says that “…we who are alive, who are left,” shall be caught up. This is a very important point to stress to rapture enthusiasts. Those who are “left” get caught up to meet the Lord. Keep that in mind as we look at these next couple of Scripture passages.
The Left Behind books get their name from a passage in Luke 17, and a similar passage in Matthew 24, which compares the coming of the Lord to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Matthew 24 puts it this way: “As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man…[they ate, they drank, they married] and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field, one is taken and one is left. Two women grinding at the mill, one is taken one is left.”
“One is taken, one is left” — the Rapture right? Jesus takes the Christians and leaves behind non-Christians!
That’s how rapture enthusiasts interpret these passages. Well, you need to say to them: “Not so fast, folks.” Two problems with the Protestant “Left Behind” interpretation: First, in the passages from Luke 17 and Matthew 24, Jesus’ coming is compared to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Let’s think about that for a moment. After the flood, who was left? Noah and his family — the good guys. The bad guys were taken and the good guys were left behind!After Sodom and Gomorrah went up in smoke, who was left? Lot and his daughters — the good guys. The bad guys were taken and the good guys were left behind!
The second problem with the “Left Behind” interpretation, has to do with what I mentioned above: 1 Thessalonians 4 says that those who are “left” get to meet Jesus in the air. You want to be left behind. Why? Because those who are left behind get to meet Jesus on His return to earth. Again, when you put 1 Thessalonians 4 together with Matthew 24 and Luke 17, it becomes quite apparent that the good guys are the ones left behind to meet Jesus.
And, if you need further proof of that, there’s a passage in Matthew 13 that pretty much seals the deal. Matthew 13:39-43, “…and the enemy who sowed them [the bad seed] is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”
So when Scripture says that “one is taken and one is left,” as it does in Luke 17 and Matthew 24, it is not talking about the Rapture, it is talking about the harvest at the close of the age. The ones who are taken, as it says in Matthew 13, are the evildoers. The angels have taken them and tossed them into the furnace of fire. So, the Left Behind books got it exactly 180 degrees wrong. The ones taken are not the good guys, they are the evildoers. The ones who are left behind are the ones who get to be caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air at His Second Coming, when He will bring all of the angels and saints with Him and there will be a new Heaven and a new earth.
In other words, there will be no Rapture like the one the Left Behind books talk about. The Left Behind books teach the opposite of what Scripture actually says.
Additional comments: The real issue (not often clear in people’s minds) is not the idea of a rapture (Christians being taken up or ‘translated’ to be with the Lord) but rather the timing of the rapture in relation to the Lord’s second coming. The controversial (and quite obviously erroneous) idea is what is called the pre- or mid- tribulation rapture. The effect of this non-biblical idea is that at some point before “the end of the age” (before the Lord’s second coming), Christians would disappear from the world, leaving behind a lot of people who would then face the awful years of the tribulation. This is well expressed in the bumper sticker:
This idea, however, is neither biblical nor credible. The idea that not just many cars but also jetliners would be left without drivers and pilots is simply beyond credibility, and by no means called for by a sound reading of the Bible.
Perhaps the most compelling argument against the pre/mid tribulation rapture theory is that no Christian believed it or even knew about it for the first 1800 years of Christianity. When it comes to Christianity, the “faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3), there is simple rule: “if its new, it just can’t be true!”
A very interesting theory, dreadnought. I like the way you are working to apply reasoning, thinking and logic to the issue.
One aspect of that is applying critical thinking to the relationship between different scriptural passages. That often doesn't happen, when some people discard certain passages in favor of others, one's that uphold their particular theological prejudices. (And by theological, I mean theory).
Another thing you do here is apply some critical real-world thinking, like pointing out the rather obvious illogicality of vehicles being bereft of drivers. This grounding in the real world reality, let us say, is really important.
Thirdly, you work on taking into account history: for example, suggesting that pre/mid tribulation theory was not invented until after 1800.
In my view, these three elements are all important to zoning in on the truth. Comparison and reconciliation between different scriptures, critical real-world based logic, and historical perspective.
So, I think you are well positioned to get to the truth and your approach is a good one.
That said, I'd like offer some other points and suggest a very different conclusion to the one you have reached. I'd just like to ask you to consider the points carefully, and NOT draw any hasty conclusions, but rather let the points sit for a bit and see what pops up over coming days or weeks.
The foundation for the conclusions I offer is complex and requires serious critical thinking. But considering we're just sharing on a board, I'll have to try and draw a few broad strokes as a starting point, and see how it goes. If you have questions, doubts or disagreements, then please shoot them back to me, because I believe that I can fully address anything necessary.
FIrstly, the human condition. The fall of Adam and Eve had a number of consequences. One was that they were 'reborn' into Satan (Lucifers) lineage. Their unity with the Archangel meant that they underwent a transformation that originated in him, not God. So, instead of being God's children, they became a sort of fallen creation of Satan. (This is why all must be reborn through Christ.)
Another consequence was that the human capacity to apprehend and understand truth was decimated. The Fall meant a fall into ignorance. Because humanity was spiritually 'murdered' and brought under Satan's control, our spiritual faculties were reduced to rubble. We fell into two forms of ignorance: ignorance of spiritual truth, and ignorance of material truth.
To lead us to recover our capacity has been a key focus of God's providence. Religion was inspired by God to help us overcome our spiritual ignorance and understand spiritual truths, such as who God is, what the spiritual laws are, and how we are meant to live in accordance with spiritual law. Science was inspired by God to help us overcome our material ignorance of hos his creation actually works, and our role in it.
From the viewpoint of understanding God's truth, God has had to raise us from an almost caveman-like level of ignorance and intellect, to a place where our intellect is restored back to its original intended function. Thus, over time, God has revealed truth at the level that the people of a particular era could understand it. (Think about cultures like the Greeks, or other pagans, where their cosmologies where they interpreted material laws of nature in terms of gods, etc).
As our human intellect has been restored step by step, thus God was able to reveal deeper and more profound truths, and our minds became more capable of grasping them.
God revealed the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, because they had been chosen and had the necessary connection to God to understand on that level, but when Jesus came, he revealed a much deeper understanding and truth. However, even Jesus lamented: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:12
So, think about it. Jesus is saying that he had a LOT more to share, a LOT more truth to share, but that because they were not ready for it, it would be revealed in the future.
The point of all this is this: Even in Jesus' day, the intellectual level of the people was not high enough for them to even grasp aspects of the truth Jesus knew. Jesus taught much in parables. Much of the scripture is also revealed in symbols, because of this very fact.
Thus, the sayings of Jesus, expressed in parables and symbols, and many of the insights of the saints, like Paul, etc, also expressed in symbols, were expressed that way because that's all that people could grasp at that point.
Fast forward to today. Today, our intellect has been raised to unimaginable levels. We understand the laws of physics to such a degree that we can design and use aircraft that weigh many, many tons to fly through the air!! Even our children study mathematics that people of Jesus day could not even imagine.
Point is, we need to realize that we are ready for an upgrade, where we can understand spiritual truths but in a logical, scientific way, that reconciles God's spiritual truth with our need to logic and evidence-based thinking.
Many believers are uncomfortable with this idea, but that is because it challenges their faith. It's hard to be open and realize that maybe we need a higher understanding of the truth that has first guided the Israelites and then our ancestors for 4000 and 2000 years. But again: John 16:12. Consider also the passage of John 3:3~14.
3:12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"
Much of what is written in the New Testament is revealed through symbols. And they were interpreted by our forebears including the saints, because that's all they had. They did not have much of a real-world understanding of the material world, and historically, that's where they were.
But today, we can only make our way through the maze of conflicting scriptural truth if we apply the three principles you did in your comment: reconciling scripture with historical insight and real-world understanding.
The "rapture" is heretical nonsense. Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about the rapture. It says the evil ones will be taken first and cast into eternal fire and damnation... The movie Taken and the novels about the rapture are heresy... Orthodox Christian Teaching on the Rapture: Is the Rapture in the Bible? Question: A friend of mine has been reading the Left Behind books that have all of this stuff about the “Rapture” in them. Is there really going to be a “Rapture” like these books talk about?
Answer: No. The “Rapture” refers to a passage in First Thessalonians 4, where Christians are “caught up” in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” Many Christians believe, and the Left Behind books promote, that this being “caught up” to meet the Lord will occur before the Great Tribulation sometime in the near future. Christians will simply vanish, meet Jesus somewhere in the air, and then return with Him to Heaven to await the end of time.
But notice, in verse 15, Paul says that “…we who are alive, who are left,” shall be caught up. This is a very important point to stress to rapture enthusiasts. Those who are “left” get caught up to meet the Lord. Keep that in mind as we look at these next couple of Scripture passages.
The Left Behind books get their name from a passage in Luke 17, and a similar passage in Matthew 24, which compares the coming of the Lord to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Matthew 24 puts it this way: “As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man…[they ate, they drank, they married] and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field, one is taken and one is left. Two women grinding at the mill, one is taken one is left.”
“One is taken, one is left” — the Rapture right? Jesus takes the Christians and leaves behind non-Christians!
That’s how rapture enthusiasts interpret these passages. Well, you need to say to them: “Not so fast, folks.” Two problems with the Protestant “Left Behind” interpretation: First, in the passages from Luke 17 and Matthew 24, Jesus’ coming is compared to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Let’s think about that for a moment. After the flood, who was left? Noah and his family — the good guys. The bad guys were taken and the good guys were left behind!After Sodom and Gomorrah went up in smoke, who was left? Lot and his daughters — the good guys. The bad guys were taken and the good guys were left behind!
The second problem with the “Left Behind” interpretation, has to do with what I mentioned above: 1 Thessalonians 4 says that those who are “left” get to meet Jesus in the air. You want to be left behind. Why? Because those who are left behind get to meet Jesus on His return to earth. Again, when you put 1 Thessalonians 4 together with Matthew 24 and Luke 17, it becomes quite apparent that the good guys are the ones left behind to meet Jesus.
And, if you need further proof of that, there’s a passage in Matthew 13 that pretty much seals the deal. Matthew 13:39-43, “…and the enemy who sowed them [the bad seed] is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”
So when Scripture says that “one is taken and one is left,” as it does in Luke 17 and Matthew 24, it is not talking about the Rapture, it is talking about the harvest at the close of the age. The ones who are taken, as it says in Matthew 13, are the evildoers. The angels have taken them and tossed them into the furnace of fire. So, the Left Behind books got it exactly 180 degrees wrong. The ones taken are not the good guys, they are the evildoers. The ones who are left behind are the ones who get to be caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air at His Second Coming, when He will bring all of the angels and saints with Him and there will be a new Heaven and a new earth.
In other words, there will be no Rapture like the one the Left Behind books talk about. The Left Behind books teach the opposite of what Scripture actually says.
Additional comments: The real issue (not often clear in people’s minds) is not the idea of a rapture (Christians being taken up or ‘translated’ to be with the Lord) but rather the timing of the rapture in relation to the Lord’s second coming. The controversial (and quite obviously erroneous) idea is what is called the pre- or mid- tribulation rapture. The effect of this non-biblical idea is that at some point before “the end of the age” (before the Lord’s second coming), Christians would disappear from the world, leaving behind a lot of people who would then face the awful years of the tribulation. This is well expressed in the bumper sticker:
This idea, however, is neither biblical nor credible. The idea that not just many cars but also jetliners would be left without drivers and pilots is simply beyond credibility, and by no means called for by a sound reading of the Bible.
Perhaps the most compelling argument against the pre/mid tribulation rapture theory is that no Christian believed it or even knew about it for the first 1800 years of Christianity. When it comes to Christianity, the “faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3), there is simple rule: “if its new, it just can’t be true!”
ONE
A very interesting theory, dreadnought. I like the way you are working to apply reasoning, thinking and logic to the issue.
One aspect of that is applying critical thinking to the relationship between different scriptural passages. That often doesn't happen, when some people discard certain passages in favor of others, one's that uphold their particular theological prejudices. (And by theological, I mean theory).
Another thing you do here is apply some critical real-world thinking, like pointing out the rather obvious illogicality of vehicles being bereft of drivers. This grounding in the real world reality, let us say, is really important.
Thirdly, you work on taking into account history: for example, suggesting that pre/mid tribulation theory was not invented until after 1800.
In my view, these three elements are all important to zoning in on the truth. Comparison and reconciliation between different scriptures, critical real-world based logic, and historical perspective.
So, I think you are well positioned to get to the truth and your approach is a good one.
That said, I'd like offer some other points and suggest a very different conclusion to the one you have reached. I'd just like to ask you to consider the points carefully, and NOT draw any hasty conclusions, but rather let the points sit for a bit and see what pops up over coming days or weeks.
The foundation for the conclusions I offer is complex and requires serious critical thinking. But considering we're just sharing on a board, I'll have to try and draw a few broad strokes as a starting point, and see how it goes. If you have questions, doubts or disagreements, then please shoot them back to me, because I believe that I can fully address anything necessary.
FIrstly, the human condition. The fall of Adam and Eve had a number of consequences. One was that they were 'reborn' into Satan (Lucifers) lineage. Their unity with the Archangel meant that they underwent a transformation that originated in him, not God. So, instead of being God's children, they became a sort of fallen creation of Satan. (This is why all must be reborn through Christ.)
Another consequence was that the human capacity to apprehend and understand truth was decimated. The Fall meant a fall into ignorance. Because humanity was spiritually 'murdered' and brought under Satan's control, our spiritual faculties were reduced to rubble. We fell into two forms of ignorance: ignorance of spiritual truth, and ignorance of material truth.
To lead us to recover our capacity has been a key focus of God's providence. Religion was inspired by God to help us overcome our spiritual ignorance and understand spiritual truths, such as who God is, what the spiritual laws are, and how we are meant to live in accordance with spiritual law. Science was inspired by God to help us overcome our material ignorance of hos his creation actually works, and our role in it.
From the viewpoint of understanding God's truth, God has had to raise us from an almost caveman-like level of ignorance and intellect, to a place where our intellect is restored back to its original intended function. Thus, over time, God has revealed truth at the level that the people of a particular era could understand it. (Think about cultures like the Greeks, or other pagans, where their cosmologies where they interpreted material laws of nature in terms of gods, etc).
As our human intellect has been restored step by step, thus God was able to reveal deeper and more profound truths, and our minds became more capable of grasping them.
God revealed the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, because they had been chosen and had the necessary connection to God to understand on that level, but when Jesus came, he revealed a much deeper understanding and truth. However, even Jesus lamented: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:12
So, think about it. Jesus is saying that he had a LOT more to share, a LOT more truth to share, but that because they were not ready for it, it would be revealed in the future.
The point of all this is this: Even in Jesus' day, the intellectual level of the people was not high enough for them to even grasp aspects of the truth Jesus knew. Jesus taught much in parables. Much of the scripture is also revealed in symbols, because of this very fact.
Thus, the sayings of Jesus, expressed in parables and symbols, and many of the insights of the saints, like Paul, etc, also expressed in symbols, were expressed that way because that's all that people could grasp at that point.
Fast forward to today. Today, our intellect has been raised to unimaginable levels. We understand the laws of physics to such a degree that we can design and use aircraft that weigh many, many tons to fly through the air!! Even our children study mathematics that people of Jesus day could not even imagine.
Point is, we need to realize that we are ready for an upgrade, where we can understand spiritual truths but in a logical, scientific way, that reconciles God's spiritual truth with our need to logic and evidence-based thinking.
Many believers are uncomfortable with this idea, but that is because it challenges their faith. It's hard to be open and realize that maybe we need a higher understanding of the truth that has first guided the Israelites and then our ancestors for 4000 and 2000 years. But again: John 16:12. Consider also the passage of John 3:3~14.
3:12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"
Much of what is written in the New Testament is revealed through symbols. And they were interpreted by our forebears including the saints, because that's all they had. They did not have much of a real-world understanding of the material world, and historically, that's where they were.
But today, we can only make our way through the maze of conflicting scriptural truth if we apply the three principles you did in your comment: reconciling scripture with historical insight and real-world understanding.
(Cont)