I am going to say the following to give balance to this topic. The JP is a liberal rag so it only shows a liberal secular "Jewish" view of abortion, which is really nothing more than perverted Social Justice and not a true Jewish value. These SJWs twist the actual principle on allowing abortion to save life by extending the meaning to include abortion for any reason. The intent of the permission is not to allow the killing of the unborn on demand. The underlying principle behind the permission is to save life - not to end it. Conservative orthodox Judaism, like most conservative Christianity, believes that life begins at conception and permits abortion only when there is no other way to save the life of the mother. If the baby is viable, it is to be given a chance to live and is delivered. Most conservative abortion law does not even classify such a procedure as abortion, but as a medically necessary means to save the mother - which is in line with orthodox Jewish law. This includes things like ectopic pregnancy. There is a vast difference between orthodox Judaism and the more vocal secular Jews that get all the press. We must be careful not to paint groups of people with the same wide brush.
Thank you, u/mac1221. I grow weary of those on this forum who want to beat-up on true spiritual descendants of Father Abraham (those who are blessed to be a blessing) by equating them with Khazarian demons or with secular persons who use their ethnicity to claim the privilege of being of Father Abraham's lineage.
Jesus had some pointed words for those who claimed kinship with Abraham in their genealogy - but not in their hearts and behavior. See Luke 3:8
For others who wonder: "Blessed to be a blessing"? See Genesis 12:2
And for anyone who dismisses our late, beloved Dr. Zelenko as a Khazarian or as somehow pretending to be of Father Abraham's line to make a buck: be wary that you do not name evil as good nor name good for evil. Isaiah 5:20-21
Amen. The heart/soul/mind must be circumsized; not just the outer-body. And, I'm delighted that we have found at least one point of agreement. GBY, dear Queef. Happy freedom, in Christ.
We have our disagreements when it comes to the Lord but we're united in this movement. Sometimes family has spats and opposing views but, at the end of the day, we're all wanting the same thing. Happy independence day, fren.
Thank you for your kind and very true words. I too grow weary of the misguided tendencies of some that border on outright hate that can leave others, especially newbies, with a very lopsided view of what this forum is about.
Absolutely. A foundation of the all Jewish halachic law is that all effort should be taken to preserve the life of both the mother and the child. Modern SJW leftist politics have twisted a permission given in Jewish law, that was only meant for the most rare and dire of circumstances, and expanded its meaning to such an extent as to allow for the killing of children for any reason a woman deems as detrimental - financial, emotional, etc. They have created a loophole where one does not actually exist in order to rubber stamp behavior. That understanding is not one of orthodox Jewish interpretation. Ending the life of another human being is not meant to be taken lightly as all are created in His image and children are a blessing from the Almighty. The commandment was to be fruitful and multiply - not to kill His legacy.
In the case of ending the life of an unborn child, it should only be done when the life of the mother is in actual danger - as in ectopic pregnancy. Preservation of life has always been a pillar of Jewish law and at its heart is the commandment to love your neighbor. It is a shame when those trying to justify such a politically or morally charged issue like abortion on demand seem to play the religious or ethnic card as though that somehow makes their case. I just wanted to give the other side to this debate that is not always portrayed in the media.
Not all Judaism takes that view. There is an old expression - two Jews and three opinions. There is not a consensus within Judaism on this issue any more than there is among Christians. They can be in the camp of taking a very liberal view that allows abortion on demand, or they can take a extremely conservative view that rivals that of any conservative Christian. Some of the more orthodox and ultra orthodox sects believe that human life begins at conception - not at the point of viability. Viability is more of a medical definition than a theological one. The view is that only when the mother's life is in danger, can the baby's life be terminated in order to save the mother. In that case, it is really not abortion. It becomes a necessary medical procedure that is already well defined in medicine. The problem I think comes by trying to keep this issue within the realm of "abortion" and not placing it back to how it was defined prior to Roe - as a medically unnecessary act to terminate a pregnancy.
There are some Jews that believe the process of ensoulment actually starts a couple of months before a child is even conceived. A soul is chosen before the body is chosen. This is why Abraham was told that, at the same time the following year, Sarah would give birth. This would have been 2-3 months before Isaac was conceived. That being said however, an unborn child still does not carry the same weight as the mother or is considered an equal life. The soul of the child is still not fixed to the body until a little while after birth. It may sound strange, but I think the evil bastards that want to extend abortion to basically include infanticide on some level understand this. Some Jewish sects believe that the same process occurs upon the death of the body. A soul is used to being in a body and it can take time for the soul to get used to the change. Judaism has funeral rituals and customs that claim to help the deceased through that process as well as for the family's grief.
Orthodox Judaism is very careful about what a child in the womb is exposed to. They believe the soul of the child can see and hear what the physical body of the child cannot, and that the child can be affected negatively while in the womb. One only needs to look at the level of messed up people around us to entertain the idea that there may actually be something going on here. When people have the idea that a human being is merely animalistic and that the natural world and natural law is all that there is to reality, they ignore the spiritual world and the life of the soul to their own detriment since we are spiritual beings that just happen to live in a dirt suit. Fascinating stuff indeed and these issues are not easily decided.
Maybe these Jewish women should stop multiplying like rabbits and having their health care paid for by taxpayers. Time an time again I saw as a nurse, a new mother on child number 6, 8, or 12, married, husband a teacher, rabbi, rabbinical student and mother was on Medicaid. Most of these women were Orthodox. I understand not wanting to use birth control because it goes against religious beliefs, but I resent paying for it time and again on the taxpayer dime. It is abuse of the system. If Jewish women value abortion so much, maybe they should go to Israel so they can have all the abortions they want. It sounds hypocritical to me that they won’t use birth control, but value abortion and use it for societal and economic control? Hmm... Something doesn’t add up. I can say for sure that I am sick of supporting irresponsible women and paying for their housing, EBT, baby formula, food program, health care, college education. Work for what you want or need instead of using pregnancy and single motherhood or impoverishment and married as a way of life. I never took a dime from the government, and worked two jobs almost every year from age 21-65. We had children, worked different schedules to avoid baby sitters as much as possible, but never used a day care. My parents and my husband’s parents never took a dime from the government. Did I want to work less? Sure, but good schools and a college education were important for us for our children. Today, if you remain single with children you can live off the government and not be saddled with college debt. That is wrong and needs to change. Family needs to be valued, as does a committed relationship.
I am going to say the following to give balance to this topic. The JP is a liberal rag so it only shows a liberal secular "Jewish" view of abortion, which is really nothing more than perverted Social Justice and not a true Jewish value. These SJWs twist the actual principle on allowing abortion to save life by extending the meaning to include abortion for any reason. The intent of the permission is not to allow the killing of the unborn on demand. The underlying principle behind the permission is to save life - not to end it. Conservative orthodox Judaism, like most conservative Christianity, believes that life begins at conception and permits abortion only when there is no other way to save the life of the mother. If the baby is viable, it is to be given a chance to live and is delivered. Most conservative abortion law does not even classify such a procedure as abortion, but as a medically necessary means to save the mother - which is in line with orthodox Jewish law. This includes things like ectopic pregnancy. There is a vast difference between orthodox Judaism and the more vocal secular Jews that get all the press. We must be careful not to paint groups of people with the same wide brush.
Thank you for this.
You are most welcome. This is an area where one is hesitant to open the can of worms. Thank you.
A delicate subject indeed.
Thank you, u/mac1221. I grow weary of those on this forum who want to beat-up on true spiritual descendants of Father Abraham (those who are blessed to be a blessing) by equating them with Khazarian demons or with secular persons who use their ethnicity to claim the privilege of being of Father Abraham's lineage.
Jesus had some pointed words for those who claimed kinship with Abraham in their genealogy - but not in their hearts and behavior. See Luke 3:8
For others who wonder: "Blessed to be a blessing"? See Genesis 12:2
And for anyone who dismisses our late, beloved Dr. Zelenko as a Khazarian or as somehow pretending to be of Father Abraham's line to make a buck: be wary that you do not name evil as good nor name good for evil. Isaiah 5:20-21
Flesh and heritage don't make the kind of Jew that Christ was speaking of.
Amen. The heart/soul/mind must be circumsized; not just the outer-body. And, I'm delighted that we have found at least one point of agreement. GBY, dear Queef. Happy freedom, in Christ.
We have our disagreements when it comes to the Lord but we're united in this movement. Sometimes family has spats and opposing views but, at the end of the day, we're all wanting the same thing. Happy independence day, fren.
Thank you for your kind and very true words. I too grow weary of the misguided tendencies of some that border on outright hate that can leave others, especially newbies, with a very lopsided view of what this forum is about.
If the baby has to be removed to save the life of the mother, the best effort possible must be done by the doctors to keep the baby alive.
Absolutely. A foundation of the all Jewish halachic law is that all effort should be taken to preserve the life of both the mother and the child. Modern SJW leftist politics have twisted a permission given in Jewish law, that was only meant for the most rare and dire of circumstances, and expanded its meaning to such an extent as to allow for the killing of children for any reason a woman deems as detrimental - financial, emotional, etc. They have created a loophole where one does not actually exist in order to rubber stamp behavior. That understanding is not one of orthodox Jewish interpretation. Ending the life of another human being is not meant to be taken lightly as all are created in His image and children are a blessing from the Almighty. The commandment was to be fruitful and multiply - not to kill His legacy.
In the case of ending the life of an unborn child, it should only be done when the life of the mother is in actual danger - as in ectopic pregnancy. Preservation of life has always been a pillar of Jewish law and at its heart is the commandment to love your neighbor. It is a shame when those trying to justify such a politically or morally charged issue like abortion on demand seem to play the religious or ethnic card as though that somehow makes their case. I just wanted to give the other side to this debate that is not always portrayed in the media.
Most certainly DarQ2light.
If you research ensoulment, you can figure out why. Read up about the infanticide tombs from OT/NT times, it's pretty mind blowing
A poster below even mentioned a "baby being viable" which is reasonable and lines up with where Judaism stands
What the majority or Q/pdw and mainstream conservatives want is abortion bans even before the baby is viable
Let's not pretend our base isn't taking the highest of high roads one could take..it's nice as a platitude but it's not realistic or practical at all.
We just set ourselves up for the libs to cherry pick us into oblivion (Ohio rings a bell)
Not all Judaism takes that view. There is an old expression - two Jews and three opinions. There is not a consensus within Judaism on this issue any more than there is among Christians. They can be in the camp of taking a very liberal view that allows abortion on demand, or they can take a extremely conservative view that rivals that of any conservative Christian. Some of the more orthodox and ultra orthodox sects believe that human life begins at conception - not at the point of viability. Viability is more of a medical definition than a theological one. The view is that only when the mother's life is in danger, can the baby's life be terminated in order to save the mother. In that case, it is really not abortion. It becomes a necessary medical procedure that is already well defined in medicine. The problem I think comes by trying to keep this issue within the realm of "abortion" and not placing it back to how it was defined prior to Roe - as a medically unnecessary act to terminate a pregnancy.
There are some Jews that believe the process of ensoulment actually starts a couple of months before a child is even conceived. A soul is chosen before the body is chosen. This is why Abraham was told that, at the same time the following year, Sarah would give birth. This would have been 2-3 months before Isaac was conceived. That being said however, an unborn child still does not carry the same weight as the mother or is considered an equal life. The soul of the child is still not fixed to the body until a little while after birth. It may sound strange, but I think the evil bastards that want to extend abortion to basically include infanticide on some level understand this. Some Jewish sects believe that the same process occurs upon the death of the body. A soul is used to being in a body and it can take time for the soul to get used to the change. Judaism has funeral rituals and customs that claim to help the deceased through that process as well as for the family's grief.
Orthodox Judaism is very careful about what a child in the womb is exposed to. They believe the soul of the child can see and hear what the physical body of the child cannot, and that the child can be affected negatively while in the womb. One only needs to look at the level of messed up people around us to entertain the idea that there may actually be something going on here. When people have the idea that a human being is merely animalistic and that the natural world and natural law is all that there is to reality, they ignore the spiritual world and the life of the soul to their own detriment since we are spiritual beings that just happen to live in a dirt suit. Fascinating stuff indeed and these issues are not easily decided.
What part of "Thou shall not murder" don't these women understand?
Not?
Maybe these Jewish women should stop multiplying like rabbits and having their health care paid for by taxpayers. Time an time again I saw as a nurse, a new mother on child number 6, 8, or 12, married, husband a teacher, rabbi, rabbinical student and mother was on Medicaid. Most of these women were Orthodox. I understand not wanting to use birth control because it goes against religious beliefs, but I resent paying for it time and again on the taxpayer dime. It is abuse of the system. If Jewish women value abortion so much, maybe they should go to Israel so they can have all the abortions they want. It sounds hypocritical to me that they won’t use birth control, but value abortion and use it for societal and economic control? Hmm... Something doesn’t add up. I can say for sure that I am sick of supporting irresponsible women and paying for their housing, EBT, baby formula, food program, health care, college education. Work for what you want or need instead of using pregnancy and single motherhood or impoverishment and married as a way of life. I never took a dime from the government, and worked two jobs almost every year from age 21-65. We had children, worked different schedules to avoid baby sitters as much as possible, but never used a day care. My parents and my husband’s parents never took a dime from the government. Did I want to work less? Sure, but good schools and a college education were important for us for our children. Today, if you remain single with children you can live off the government and not be saddled with college debt. That is wrong and needs to change. Family needs to be valued, as does a committed relationship.