Bad choice, fren. Been around firearms all my life and spent 24 years in the military. Black tips on something that small would over-penetrate and put an unintended target in danger or outright kill. Black tips in 30-06 would be great for shooting engines (car/truck, etc)
Teflon-tipped is where it at for something like that: The "penetrator" will break thru the hard plastic (or possibly thin aluminum) bits while expanding to really fck-up those internals. Ergo, the .556 "green tips" mentioned would be a great choice: penetration-->expansion-->death with very low potential of putting any bystanders at risk.
Would love to get hold of some more black tips tho, especially in 762x51 or 762x54R.
My assumption (I know,I know…) is that they are armored in some way and penetration is paramount.
If I’m out to shoot robot dogs, things have gone to shit far enough that over-penetration might be a good thing, given that the ‘bots will be followed by humans with bad intentions.
I’ve been shooting for a long time too, I competed for years in HP rifle but was never able to break into the “Expert” ranking.
EMP IEDs might be a good alternative. They’re just a big capacitor and an under-rated inductor. They have a low blast signature, just a loud bang and a big EM pulse. Of course, they will screw up everybody’s electronics as collateral damage.
Well, assumptions are on both of us I reckon. I'm taking it "as is"; i.e. high impact plastics. I would imagine they'd be slightly up-armored if they became a tactical asset but not so much as a normal rifle round couldn't penetrate. Reasoning: You can only armor to the point the chassis/drive train can handle the extra weight. Go over the max allowable and your asset just becomes an overburdened target: All the strengths diminish exponentially. "We" learned this with the up-armored HUMVEE's: while the armor DID work, to a point, it really put the engine and suspension in pain. They later upgraded and improved but not by much. The trade off in this example was worth it though.
Anyway, I digress. Point is the more armor placed on an asset without ensuring the chassis and drive can handle it, diminishes the performance. These"dogs" are supposed to be fairly quick and agile as is. Cant imagine putting too much weight on those things.
IMHO, the dogs will have minor upgrades and be the "point" to find targets. They will call in bigger more robust MIL-grade robots that currently exist that ARE armored, armed, and the lethal component.
....and unless they're protected from EMP's, yeh I agree an EMP burst would take them out too.
I was thinking along the lines of the various kinds of aramid fibers and a bit of ceramic.
Many decades ago I worked with a veteran of the European campaign. He told me of his unit having pinned down a group of Germans holed up inside of a dry canal lock. He said that a few rounds of black tip penetrated the lock gates easily and soon had the white flag waving. I think the black tip would do well against the second line of up-armored and armed ‘bots. The outstanding accuracy of the black tips would enable a safer stand-off distance.
If war comes to us here, it will be a real insurgency and thus, all notions of fairness are out the window.
Kudos for a real discussion despite our differences.
Have to echo your points here AND focus on just what black tips can do. That's the sort of over penetration I was referring to in my initial concern. I've shot plenty of black tips in a multitude of calibers and they're certainly effective in defeating cover like your example. You should see what multiple black tips out of an M2 (.50 cal) can do...devastating.
Aramid fibers/Kevlar (same same) Can be effective to a point. Standard issue (military) is class 3 body armor (Modular Tactical Vest or just "MTV" if you wanna use the fancy industry name) which is kevlar and plates. Lemme tell you for real that a steel core 762x54R Russian sniper round can go thru it like butter. Seen it take down a squad mate at an angle: round came in about 30-40 degrees to his right, hit his outermost left breast area, spun him to the ground, fully penetrated the armor AT AN ANGLE but missed him entirely. Lucky SOB. These are essentially our "black tips" but typically used in the SVD/SVDR sniper rifles and the BS that our armor could defeat the round is just that: BS We may (likely) have better these days...in fact that's probably so (I retired in 2012 after 24 yrs)...but back in the 90's this was the case.
Anyway, all I have to go on is personal experience with kevlar/plates and kevlar alone will not stop a high velocity penetrator (black tip) round in the .30 and up range. Cant speak on any caliber less than that though. I would imagine a high-speed small round (like a .556) would zip thru standard Kevlar as well. With plates? I dunno. But I do know High velocity smaller round lose their energy much faster than a larger round when it comes to penetrations...depending on the mass/type of the target;i.e. is it flesh, brick, metal, etc.
Point being is that black tips can indeed mess things up, but you have to keep in mind any unintended targets (good guys/civilians/etc.) that may catch that round when it goes thru...because something that small it definitely will in the .30-06 caliber, even wearing kevlar. This was the whole impetus of my initial warnings.
Didnt mean for this to turn into a classroom instructional on Body armor but it just sort of went there. Sorry about that.
Bad choice, fren. Been around firearms all my life and spent 24 years in the military. Black tips on something that small would over-penetrate and put an unintended target in danger or outright kill. Black tips in 30-06 would be great for shooting engines (car/truck, etc)
Teflon-tipped is where it at for something like that: The "penetrator" will break thru the hard plastic (or possibly thin aluminum) bits while expanding to really fck-up those internals. Ergo, the .556 "green tips" mentioned would be a great choice: penetration-->expansion-->death with very low potential of putting any bystanders at risk.
Would love to get hold of some more black tips tho, especially in 762x51 or 762x54R.
My assumption (I know,I know…) is that they are armored in some way and penetration is paramount.
If I’m out to shoot robot dogs, things have gone to shit far enough that over-penetration might be a good thing, given that the ‘bots will be followed by humans with bad intentions.
I’ve been shooting for a long time too, I competed for years in HP rifle but was never able to break into the “Expert” ranking.
EMP IEDs might be a good alternative. They’re just a big capacitor and an under-rated inductor. They have a low blast signature, just a loud bang and a big EM pulse. Of course, they will screw up everybody’s electronics as collateral damage.
Thank you for your service.
Well, assumptions are on both of us I reckon. I'm taking it "as is"; i.e. high impact plastics. I would imagine they'd be slightly up-armored if they became a tactical asset but not so much as a normal rifle round couldn't penetrate. Reasoning: You can only armor to the point the chassis/drive train can handle the extra weight. Go over the max allowable and your asset just becomes an overburdened target: All the strengths diminish exponentially. "We" learned this with the up-armored HUMVEE's: while the armor DID work, to a point, it really put the engine and suspension in pain. They later upgraded and improved but not by much. The trade off in this example was worth it though.
Anyway, I digress. Point is the more armor placed on an asset without ensuring the chassis and drive can handle it, diminishes the performance. These"dogs" are supposed to be fairly quick and agile as is. Cant imagine putting too much weight on those things.
IMHO, the dogs will have minor upgrades and be the "point" to find targets. They will call in bigger more robust MIL-grade robots that currently exist that ARE armored, armed, and the lethal component.
....and unless they're protected from EMP's, yeh I agree an EMP burst would take them out too.
Good comments all.
I was thinking along the lines of the various kinds of aramid fibers and a bit of ceramic.
Many decades ago I worked with a veteran of the European campaign. He told me of his unit having pinned down a group of Germans holed up inside of a dry canal lock. He said that a few rounds of black tip penetrated the lock gates easily and soon had the white flag waving. I think the black tip would do well against the second line of up-armored and armed ‘bots. The outstanding accuracy of the black tips would enable a safer stand-off distance.
If war comes to us here, it will be a real insurgency and thus, all notions of fairness are out the window.
Kudos for a real discussion despite our differences.
Have to echo your points here AND focus on just what black tips can do. That's the sort of over penetration I was referring to in my initial concern. I've shot plenty of black tips in a multitude of calibers and they're certainly effective in defeating cover like your example. You should see what multiple black tips out of an M2 (.50 cal) can do...devastating.
Aramid fibers/Kevlar (same same) Can be effective to a point. Standard issue (military) is class 3 body armor (Modular Tactical Vest or just "MTV" if you wanna use the fancy industry name) which is kevlar and plates. Lemme tell you for real that a steel core 762x54R Russian sniper round can go thru it like butter. Seen it take down a squad mate at an angle: round came in about 30-40 degrees to his right, hit his outermost left breast area, spun him to the ground, fully penetrated the armor AT AN ANGLE but missed him entirely. Lucky SOB. These are essentially our "black tips" but typically used in the SVD/SVDR sniper rifles and the BS that our armor could defeat the round is just that: BS We may (likely) have better these days...in fact that's probably so (I retired in 2012 after 24 yrs)...but back in the 90's this was the case.
Anyway, all I have to go on is personal experience with kevlar/plates and kevlar alone will not stop a high velocity penetrator (black tip) round in the .30 and up range. Cant speak on any caliber less than that though. I would imagine a high-speed small round (like a .556) would zip thru standard Kevlar as well. With plates? I dunno. But I do know High velocity smaller round lose their energy much faster than a larger round when it comes to penetrations...depending on the mass/type of the target;i.e. is it flesh, brick, metal, etc.
Point being is that black tips can indeed mess things up, but you have to keep in mind any unintended targets (good guys/civilians/etc.) that may catch that round when it goes thru...because something that small it definitely will in the .30-06 caliber, even wearing kevlar. This was the whole impetus of my initial warnings.
Didnt mean for this to turn into a classroom instructional on Body armor but it just sort of went there. Sorry about that.