Sure, that's a fair interpretation. But it still says nothing about homosexuality. It says something about evil.
"If you want to assert that scripture does not support X, well, it's easy to simply go to the scripture that serves your intent and ignore the scripture which doesn't!"
I agree with that. People do it all the time. Whenever we see a contradiction in scripture we can untangle it by studying the context, the translation, the culture of the time, etc. As far as I can tell from my studies of all the passages relevant to this discussion, the Christian interpretation of the Bible as being condemnatory of homosexuality (not talking about adultery, promiscuity, or fornication, gay or straight - that's all clearly forbidden) is based on tradition paired with incorrect translations or a lack of context.
Since I was born gay and didn't have a say in the matter, that's quite a comfort.
Christians can be guilty of a terrible thing in this matter. By pounding on the Bible and insisting that God hates gays, they drive gays out of worship. Many of these people react by saying "Well if God hates me, then I hate God." They turn their back on God entirely, and that's on those Christians. Wouldn't you prefer that a gay man loves God, finds a partner to whom to commit, stays faithful, and lives a good life with Christian fellowship? I think Jesus would prefer that. But the perpetuation of the false tradition hinders it, which is just sad.
I see that you have a special interest in your interpretation. (And I think that's understandable.)
At the same time, your interpretation is likely to be rooted in your particular worldview. For example, your belief that you were "born gay". That's a belief you've embraced and accepted, isn't it? Then that's going to inform and shape your interpretation of many things, including scripture or that the idea that there is something wrong (unnatural, fallen, etc), or not wrong, with homosexuality.
Without going into too much detail, my own interpretations of scripture likewise are rooted in and/or are impacted by the worldview that I have. In my estimation, that worldview is grounded in and verified (supported and upheld) by scripture. Naturally, otherwise I would change it, as I affirm that scripture is an expression of God's truth. (And, I won't really elaborate on that here, as it would divert a lot from what I think are the important points your response raises.)
But aside from all of that, you bring an anecdotal argument, which I think isn't really evidence. It's a very different matter, even if the two are connected in some way.
This is a topic that requires a lot of discussion of some of the issues are to be satisfactorily (imo) addressed. But as an example (or starting point), I would put it that any Christian who insists that God hates gays has a deeply flawed view of God and truth, or scripture. It's axiomatic that God hates the sin but loves the sinner.
I would also put it out there that such people are in almost all cases (if not all) projecting their own flawed inner world on what they perceive, rightly or wrongly, as an easy target. Thus, they point at the sin in their brother's (or sisters) eye, as a means to ignore, or indulge in, denial of their own.
Projecting one's own flaws, faults, inner conflicts etc, onto others is always going to generate severe problems. It multiples the problems, instead of restoring them.
But none of this means that homsexual behavior isn't sinful or not a sin. Projection in and of itself doesn't prove or mean that the target of the projection is faultless. But the practice of diverting attention (self attention or otherwise) from oneself by focusing on something going on in others, that's always problematic, and irresponsible in nature. Hence, Jesus admonition about logs and twigs.
....
Many of these people react
Yes, I very well understand the dynamic of "if God hates me, well then, I'm going to hate God" which is essentially "If God rejects me, then I'm going to reject God". But there are several faults or flaws here.
One, is God rejecting the person, or is the judgemental believer rejecting the person? The obvious answer is that it's the second.
Another problem is identification with behavior or impulses. Aka, I feel same sex attraction therefore "I AM a homosexual". A person takes on such a classification of themselves at their own peril. I say that not to proclaim foreboding on you (heaven forbid!). No, rather this is simply another example of any multitude of examples of practicing identification (aka defining oneself by identifying with a thing that is not actually one's self, or conceiving of one's value by identifying it with something that is not the true source of one's value): I am a wealthy person! I am a doctor (how dare you question my knowledge!) I am (this concept that I have chosen or adopted as my identity).
[The problem here is that in a fallen condition, we experience separation from God, and very often do not see ourselves as God sees us, or see our value as God sees it.]
They turn their back on God entirely, and that's on those Christians.
Actually, it's on both of them. Unless a person takes responsibility for his or her choices, he is essentially doomed to wander without ever finding home.
"I reject God, but that's ALL that person's fault. I have no choice!" Just like "I hit her; it was her fault, she made me" and "I'm feeling angry, and it's your fault".
This is the route that any sinner takes in order to self-justify their behavior and choices without actually acknowledging their own responsibility in the choices that they make.
And I say sinner here because we're having a discussion within the Christian context, but it's true of any person who is avoiding their own painful growth process. We fall in to a trap of not accepting responsibility for MY choices.
This is fundamental fallen human nature 101. Where did it come from? This is what Lucifer did at the fall. He came up with hundreds of justifications for his choice - his decision - to rebel against and reject God and seduce God's children in to spiritual death. He did it, and blamed God for it. But this fallen nature is rooted in a lie.
Wouldn't you prefer....?
Well, what I prefer is not really important here, is it? What's important is what God would prefer. And I think God has a LOT of preferences with regards to his children that frankly do not come about because of the choices of those children.
In my understanding of God, without going into possible nuances, or without raising all the possible caveats that there might easily be, I would say that God would prefer someone with SS attraction to not practice it, but would also prefer that someone with SS attraction practicing it would practice it in monogamous way.
But it really all depends on the circumstances.
In any case, I think we could agree that ignorance, or personal misbehavior, by judgmental people (be they Christian or not) causing others to feel unloved, not valuable, or rejected by God, well, that's caused a LOT of suffering, and is an undesirable thing.
That said, we cannot deny truth and responsibility of choice simply in order to make people feel comfortable. That is completely the path being taken by all those woke churches.
To give another example, if a church or preacher were to say Hey, drunkenness is not a problem! Don't worry about it! in order to ensure that people with drunken problems don't feel rejected and refuse to come to church, well, that's a lose-lose situation.
The question of homosexuality is a both a simple and a complex topic, imo. It's one that is very real and deeply personal for some people, but sadly also something easily dismissed or ignored by some who take it purely on a theoretical basis.
To God, however, the return of each and every one of his children is a deeply personal thing. And as such, any person seeking to make God happy should strive not to be too blase about the topic. But that's my opinion.
false tradition
In my view, the false tradition is how people treat their fellow man, NOT the view that God's original design is only sexual union between a man and a woman, OR the view that homoesexual behavior was introduced into the human experience from a non-God source. (MANY human behaviors have been so introduced.)
But that's my belief. So far.
I appreciate your coming back and expressing your views.
"For example, your belief that you were "born gay"."
This discussion warrants getting a bit personal I think, so I'll tell you something. I tried to be straight for two decades. It's what my family taught, it's what my faith taught, it's what people I trusted told me that God wanted. But it didn't work. I prayed. I fasted. I studied scripture. FOR DECADES. If I had had the choice on not being gay, I WOULD HAVE MADE IT, a thousand times over. I wanted to lead that life of meaning. I deeply yearn, still, for the joy of fathering children. Loneliness sucks. But throughout all this struggle, I could not form meaningful relationships with women. And I eventually realized how cruel it would be to rope a good woman into that situation. That would truly be a sin. So I resigned myself to a life of loneliness and voluntary celibacy.
But the struggle did result in a close relationship with God. We converse daily. It's the most important relationship in my life, and I trust it beyond anything anyone in this mortal coil could tell me. It took me two decades to realize that I needed to trust him more than the people who claimed to know him.
So there aren't many people around who are better qualified through personal experience to say that one is born gay. It took me a lot of years to get it through my skull that I needed to ask God what he actually wanted instead of trusting what I'd been told he wanted. He told me to accept myself, showed me how and why the Christian tradition on the topic is false, and to look for someone to commit to and build a life with.
Your opinion on whether I'm right about this is irrelevant. I'm right about this. I will meet you before the great judgement bar of God and still be right about this; the knowledge is from him, in spite of all my struggles to "know" something different.
"But aside from all of that, you bring an anecdotal argument, which I think isn't really evidence."
Of course. I can't prove it to you, only God could prove it to me. Can you prove to another person that God exists with anything more than anecdotal evidence? Accept the anecdote or not, it's not important as to whether or not it's the truth. And frankly, so long as you treat everyone with dignity and kindness and fairness, it doesn't really matter whether you ever agree with me. God has already given me all the validation I need.
I'm so sorry to hear about your lonely course. Thank you for sharing on this personal level. Reading your words elicits a lot of thoughts and feelings. And there is no reason this side of the cosmos why such discussions shouldn't be respectful. If we want to draw closer to our creator, we have to learn to practice his attitudes and his behaviors.
There are differences in perspective here, but after all, this is why God created us as individuals. Each person is unique, and therefor, our perspectives always bring something unique, if we honor him.
I'd like to share a few thoughts in response. Not to convince you of anything or to make some assertion that my way of thinking is 'right', but purely in the spirit of open sharing, no strong attached.
I was reflecting on our exchange the other day. I found myself asking mentally a question of (you, myself, others - aka a generic 'you' question): "What do you identify with the most in your life? What are you, first and foremost?"
To me, the answer to this is "I am a child of My Father, the creator". Before I am white, or brown, before I am old or young, before I am <occupation>, before I am <believer>, before I am a homosexual / heterosexual, before all of these things my core identify should be "I am a child of my Father".
That will mean different things to different folks, but to me it means that, whether I feel it or experience it or not, the truth is that I am loved. He loves me. To do honor to our creator, I should never embrace or indulge in thinking otherwise. Not to say that this isn't a challenge; there are things about myself that I do not like, that I am not happy about, and that I currently find difficult to love, but that's my problem, and not His. It’s my limitation, not his.
Let's put aside the question of whether one is or can be born with [X] sex attraction, or born as [X], or born as anything other than as a child of God. It seems to me that whatever your journey, the step of learning to accept yourself and open yourself to God loving you for who you are has been a critical step, and an important one. How you see yourself, or experience yourself, this may not necessarily be fully or completely how God sees you (and the same is true for me), but if we open ourselves up to him, he will always find the most loving path for us to move forward in our life.
Maybe that's one step on (this process) or one step on (that process), but it seems to me undeniable that it has been or was a critical step for you in moving forward. And in that context, regardless of other points or questions that are being put aside for the moment, I rejoice in that and am grateful that you could take such a step.
You mentioned 20 years before you realized that you need "to trust him more than the people who claimed to know him". Indeed. Indeed. On the other hand, if we are truly walking forward on the path of learning and knowing and increasingly realizing our true nature, then 20 years is not actually that long a time. It's what life is made of. I fully confess that I am still learning, particularly about myself, and in recent years I continue to be blessed with many opportunities to be challenged internally about how I love others, and how I learn to love myself as God loves me.
"Your opinion on whether I'm right about this is irrelevant". Think you could possibly tweak this a bit? Because my opinion on this is extremely relevant, but to me. Maybe what you really mean is that "your opinion on this is not relevant to me". That's a statement I can fully embrace and respect, but I’m not all that excited about the idea that my opinion isn’t relevant full stop. It’s relevant to me, it’s relevant to God, and to be frank, you don’t need to invalidate my opinion to justify your own. That’s not how it works, imo.
(And if your belief requires you to adopt the viewpoint that "I am right and everyone else is wrong" and then assert that on to others, well, how that is any different from the attitude or behavior of those who think their view of God is right and anyone else, aka you, is wrong?)
Your pushback here is rather intense: "Your opinion doesn't matter, and when we are before God's judgment throne, I will still be right." I can understand that there is a lifetime of experience and journey (and sufferings, no doubt) behind that pushback, and I can accept that you may have reasons for this approach, but to echo your words, that's not really relevant to me. It’s also not necessary here, I think, but each to his own. Your choices.
"This knowledge is from him". In my experience, God raises and educates us continually on a journey and returning and being restored to him is an ongoing process. People thinking that because they experience something as correct and right and from God, that this must be true for everyone - This is one big problem in the entire religion & spiritual sphere.
There is a balance that needs to be sought, and it is ALL about taking personal responsibility for our choices and our beliefs. Failing to take responsibility for the beliefs I choose is foundational to all the relational conflict that emerge between people including in the sphere of religious or theological views.
This is not to say in any way that truth is relative. Truth is truth. But until you or I become an absolute person absolutely one with God, our view and understanding of truth is going to be inherently relative. That realization is what I am talking about when I say a balance is necessary. For us, truth is relative. And what’s important is: does my view of the truth bring me closer to God or further away? Ultimately, only God can know the answer to that, and even if someone else can know it, it is NOT someone else’s responsibility to decide.
God wants us each to have the sense of conviction that what we are convinced is true is true. How else could we commit to it, and God wants us to be committed, but more than our commitment to what we think is true, he wants us to be committed to him. It’s tricky though, because we identify and thus engage in a relationship with him only through our perception of truth. Nonetheless, God does not wish for us to impose our convictions on others in a way that overrides their responsibility or which ignores their responsibility to choose. (my opinion)
You may have very good reasons for the belief that you were "born gay" (whatever that means, a whole other discussion, but essentially that it is ‘an unchangeable aspect of your nature’(?). I empathize and sympathize with that. Moreover, I don't need you to either justify that belief to me or for me to accept that because this is 'true for you' it must be true for me. I'm OK with someone having a belief that is different to mine; my choices in faith are not predicated on some other people's acceptance or rejection of me because of those choices. And some choices come bundled with pain. In many cases, especially in the healing process, pain comes along with good choices.
What I'm saying here is, I’m really OK with the fact that there are and will be differences in our beliefs, about many different topics, not just this one. And, I think one factor there is that to me, you are not your beliefs, but rather, a child of God. As long as a person engages in their beliefs with the best integrity that they can muster, how could I not respect that or even thank God for that? It's the integrity and heart that we bring to our choices that count, because we will always make choices that are, in some cases, sub-optimal. Moreover, we also make choices that are the right choice [now], but which may no longer be the right choice [then].
If this was not true, we would be doomed to a hellish existence forever. Case in point: as children, we make certain [unconscious] choices in order to cope with the challenges and traumas and emotional injuries that we sustain growing up in ANY family that is not perfectly in unison with God's heart. But as we grow older, our unconscious mind will bring those choices to the surface, so that they can be altered or corrected once circumstances have changed.
Example: A child may develop a deep anger and resentment towards a parent who is being abusive in some way (deliberately or unconsciously), and that anger and resentful emotion may form a protective barrier to more hurt and injury, but once the child grows and is no long in a place where the parent's abusive behavior can have the same impact or influence, then the child will ONLY move forward by revisiting that anger and resentment, and working through it, and then making a different choice. (letting it go, finding love and forgiveness, etc)
Another example: a child may choose to believe "I am unlovable" based on all the information available at the time. They may feel unloved, and then choose to believe that on some level, because they feel that. But later on, they may find that what they saw and understood at the time, as a child, was not the whole picture. By expanding their view, he or she may find a different perspective and thereby choose a different view (belief) and find healing, and in healing, be able to live a better life and more credibly fulfill God's desire for him or her.
So, I'm not going to assert that your belief is wrong. I don't need to and to me, it's not relevant here. What's most important for me, personally, at least in terms of who you are (theoretically, as we’re just nodes on some internet platform at this point), is that you are making the best choices you can with integrity.
I'm also not trying to imply you will CHANGE your choice or your belief in future... I'm just saying that whether your beliefs and choices are right or wrong on an absolute scale is purely for God to judge and access, and for you to live with. For me, whether your beliefs are right or wrong is not relevant (emphasis on 'for me'). I can accept and give thanks that you are doing your best to fulfill God's desire for you as best you can perceive it. If indeed you are. Can any of us do more than that? I don't see how I could.
And frankly, so long as you treat everyone with dignity and kindness and fairness, it doesn't really matter .....
I think we are on the same page here. I aspire to treat others with dignity (despite them often attempting to undermine their own dignity! kek), kindness and fairness. Well, no, not with fairness. "With generosity" is what I aspire to. Heaven knows, if things were fair, I'd be up the creek without a paddle!!!
But where generosity falls short, then yes, I guess fairness is at least a good minimum option.
God has already given me all the validation I need.
That’s fine. That’s between God and you. It is neither for me to make your choices, or you to make mine. I'll strive to have same heart of God towards the choices of others that I think he has towards them. I try to imagine: how would he feel about this? After a lifetime of this, I feel like he shares with me – or rather, we feel the same way, about a lot of things. Ultimately, I can really only know or experience God’s heart through the respect, generosity, care and understanding that he continues to show towards me, and the heart I share towards others.
If we could all simply practice "love one another as I have loved you" we'd all be a LOT better off. Of course, that’s NOT simple. It’s gosh darn hard. Nonetheless, God’s love involves respecting people's responsibility, even if they fail it (we all do in some way). The responsibility to make choices is our Father's greatest gift to us, and he is very, very, very respectful of it - even when he doesn't like it or doesn’t agree. He won't violate it and he won’t intervene, unless he can do it with perfect integrity.
So whether we agree or not on this or that is beside the point. Having differences is not a bad thing, if they are united and dedicated to the same cause or purpose.
See my reply below yours. It would seem homosexuality is a judgement.
We still have to love the sinner, but perhaps it would be better if they did not practice it, in the same way unmarried hetero ppl should avoid fornication
"Unbridled sexual lust."
Sure, that's a fair interpretation. But it still says nothing about homosexuality. It says something about evil.
"If you want to assert that scripture does not support X, well, it's easy to simply go to the scripture that serves your intent and ignore the scripture which doesn't!"
I agree with that. People do it all the time. Whenever we see a contradiction in scripture we can untangle it by studying the context, the translation, the culture of the time, etc. As far as I can tell from my studies of all the passages relevant to this discussion, the Christian interpretation of the Bible as being condemnatory of homosexuality (not talking about adultery, promiscuity, or fornication, gay or straight - that's all clearly forbidden) is based on tradition paired with incorrect translations or a lack of context.
Since I was born gay and didn't have a say in the matter, that's quite a comfort.
Christians can be guilty of a terrible thing in this matter. By pounding on the Bible and insisting that God hates gays, they drive gays out of worship. Many of these people react by saying "Well if God hates me, then I hate God." They turn their back on God entirely, and that's on those Christians. Wouldn't you prefer that a gay man loves God, finds a partner to whom to commit, stays faithful, and lives a good life with Christian fellowship? I think Jesus would prefer that. But the perpetuation of the false tradition hinders it, which is just sad.
Aaha.
I see that you have a special interest in your interpretation. (And I think that's understandable.)
At the same time, your interpretation is likely to be rooted in your particular worldview. For example, your belief that you were "born gay". That's a belief you've embraced and accepted, isn't it? Then that's going to inform and shape your interpretation of many things, including scripture or that the idea that there is something wrong (unnatural, fallen, etc), or not wrong, with homosexuality.
Without going into too much detail, my own interpretations of scripture likewise are rooted in and/or are impacted by the worldview that I have. In my estimation, that worldview is grounded in and verified (supported and upheld) by scripture. Naturally, otherwise I would change it, as I affirm that scripture is an expression of God's truth. (And, I won't really elaborate on that here, as it would divert a lot from what I think are the important points your response raises.)
But aside from all of that, you bring an anecdotal argument, which I think isn't really evidence. It's a very different matter, even if the two are connected in some way.
This is a topic that requires a lot of discussion of some of the issues are to be satisfactorily (imo) addressed. But as an example (or starting point), I would put it that any Christian who insists that God hates gays has a deeply flawed view of God and truth, or scripture. It's axiomatic that God hates the sin but loves the sinner.
I would also put it out there that such people are in almost all cases (if not all) projecting their own flawed inner world on what they perceive, rightly or wrongly, as an easy target. Thus, they point at the sin in their brother's (or sisters) eye, as a means to ignore, or indulge in, denial of their own.
Projecting one's own flaws, faults, inner conflicts etc, onto others is always going to generate severe problems. It multiples the problems, instead of restoring them.
But none of this means that homsexual behavior isn't sinful or not a sin. Projection in and of itself doesn't prove or mean that the target of the projection is faultless. But the practice of diverting attention (self attention or otherwise) from oneself by focusing on something going on in others, that's always problematic, and irresponsible in nature. Hence, Jesus admonition about logs and twigs.
....
Yes, I very well understand the dynamic of "if God hates me, well then, I'm going to hate God" which is essentially "If God rejects me, then I'm going to reject God". But there are several faults or flaws here.
One, is God rejecting the person, or is the judgemental believer rejecting the person? The obvious answer is that it's the second.
Another problem is identification with behavior or impulses. Aka, I feel same sex attraction therefore "I AM a homosexual". A person takes on such a classification of themselves at their own peril. I say that not to proclaim foreboding on you (heaven forbid!). No, rather this is simply another example of any multitude of examples of practicing identification (aka defining oneself by identifying with a thing that is not actually one's self, or conceiving of one's value by identifying it with something that is not the true source of one's value): I am a wealthy person! I am a doctor (how dare you question my knowledge!) I am (this concept that I have chosen or adopted as my identity).
[The problem here is that in a fallen condition, we experience separation from God, and very often do not see ourselves as God sees us, or see our value as God sees it.]
Actually, it's on both of them. Unless a person takes responsibility for his or her choices, he is essentially doomed to wander without ever finding home.
"I reject God, but that's ALL that person's fault. I have no choice!" Just like "I hit her; it was her fault, she made me" and "I'm feeling angry, and it's your fault".
This is the route that any sinner takes in order to self-justify their behavior and choices without actually acknowledging their own responsibility in the choices that they make.
And I say sinner here because we're having a discussion within the Christian context, but it's true of any person who is avoiding their own painful growth process. We fall in to a trap of not accepting responsibility for MY choices.
This is fundamental fallen human nature 101. Where did it come from? This is what Lucifer did at the fall. He came up with hundreds of justifications for his choice - his decision - to rebel against and reject God and seduce God's children in to spiritual death. He did it, and blamed God for it. But this fallen nature is rooted in a lie.
Well, what I prefer is not really important here, is it? What's important is what God would prefer. And I think God has a LOT of preferences with regards to his children that frankly do not come about because of the choices of those children.
In my understanding of God, without going into possible nuances, or without raising all the possible caveats that there might easily be, I would say that God would prefer someone with SS attraction to not practice it, but would also prefer that someone with SS attraction practicing it would practice it in monogamous way.
But it really all depends on the circumstances.
In any case, I think we could agree that ignorance, or personal misbehavior, by judgmental people (be they Christian or not) causing others to feel unloved, not valuable, or rejected by God, well, that's caused a LOT of suffering, and is an undesirable thing.
That said, we cannot deny truth and responsibility of choice simply in order to make people feel comfortable. That is completely the path being taken by all those woke churches.
To give another example, if a church or preacher were to say Hey, drunkenness is not a problem! Don't worry about it! in order to ensure that people with drunken problems don't feel rejected and refuse to come to church, well, that's a lose-lose situation.
The question of homosexuality is a both a simple and a complex topic, imo. It's one that is very real and deeply personal for some people, but sadly also something easily dismissed or ignored by some who take it purely on a theoretical basis.
To God, however, the return of each and every one of his children is a deeply personal thing. And as such, any person seeking to make God happy should strive not to be too blase about the topic. But that's my opinion.
In my view, the false tradition is how people treat their fellow man, NOT the view that God's original design is only sexual union between a man and a woman, OR the view that homoesexual behavior was introduced into the human experience from a non-God source. (MANY human behaviors have been so introduced.)
But that's my belief. So far.
I appreciate your coming back and expressing your views.
be well, fren.
"For example, your belief that you were "born gay"."
This discussion warrants getting a bit personal I think, so I'll tell you something. I tried to be straight for two decades. It's what my family taught, it's what my faith taught, it's what people I trusted told me that God wanted. But it didn't work. I prayed. I fasted. I studied scripture. FOR DECADES. If I had had the choice on not being gay, I WOULD HAVE MADE IT, a thousand times over. I wanted to lead that life of meaning. I deeply yearn, still, for the joy of fathering children. Loneliness sucks. But throughout all this struggle, I could not form meaningful relationships with women. And I eventually realized how cruel it would be to rope a good woman into that situation. That would truly be a sin. So I resigned myself to a life of loneliness and voluntary celibacy.
But the struggle did result in a close relationship with God. We converse daily. It's the most important relationship in my life, and I trust it beyond anything anyone in this mortal coil could tell me. It took me two decades to realize that I needed to trust him more than the people who claimed to know him.
So there aren't many people around who are better qualified through personal experience to say that one is born gay. It took me a lot of years to get it through my skull that I needed to ask God what he actually wanted instead of trusting what I'd been told he wanted. He told me to accept myself, showed me how and why the Christian tradition on the topic is false, and to look for someone to commit to and build a life with.
Your opinion on whether I'm right about this is irrelevant. I'm right about this. I will meet you before the great judgement bar of God and still be right about this; the knowledge is from him, in spite of all my struggles to "know" something different.
"But aside from all of that, you bring an anecdotal argument, which I think isn't really evidence."
Of course. I can't prove it to you, only God could prove it to me. Can you prove to another person that God exists with anything more than anecdotal evidence? Accept the anecdote or not, it's not important as to whether or not it's the truth. And frankly, so long as you treat everyone with dignity and kindness and fairness, it doesn't really matter whether you ever agree with me. God has already given me all the validation I need.
Thank you for the respectful conversation.
Dear fren,
I'm so sorry to hear about your lonely course. Thank you for sharing on this personal level. Reading your words elicits a lot of thoughts and feelings. And there is no reason this side of the cosmos why such discussions shouldn't be respectful. If we want to draw closer to our creator, we have to learn to practice his attitudes and his behaviors.
There are differences in perspective here, but after all, this is why God created us as individuals. Each person is unique, and therefor, our perspectives always bring something unique, if we honor him.
I'd like to share a few thoughts in response. Not to convince you of anything or to make some assertion that my way of thinking is 'right', but purely in the spirit of open sharing, no strong attached.
I was reflecting on our exchange the other day. I found myself asking mentally a question of (you, myself, others - aka a generic 'you' question): "What do you identify with the most in your life? What are you, first and foremost?"
To me, the answer to this is "I am a child of My Father, the creator". Before I am white, or brown, before I am old or young, before I am <occupation>, before I am <believer>, before I am a homosexual / heterosexual, before all of these things my core identify should be "I am a child of my Father".
That will mean different things to different folks, but to me it means that, whether I feel it or experience it or not, the truth is that I am loved. He loves me. To do honor to our creator, I should never embrace or indulge in thinking otherwise. Not to say that this isn't a challenge; there are things about myself that I do not like, that I am not happy about, and that I currently find difficult to love, but that's my problem, and not His. It’s my limitation, not his.
Let's put aside the question of whether one is or can be born with [X] sex attraction, or born as [X], or born as anything other than as a child of God. It seems to me that whatever your journey, the step of learning to accept yourself and open yourself to God loving you for who you are has been a critical step, and an important one. How you see yourself, or experience yourself, this may not necessarily be fully or completely how God sees you (and the same is true for me), but if we open ourselves up to him, he will always find the most loving path for us to move forward in our life. Maybe that's one step on (this process) or one step on (that process), but it seems to me undeniable that it has been or was a critical step for you in moving forward. And in that context, regardless of other points or questions that are being put aside for the moment, I rejoice in that and am grateful that you could take such a step.
You mentioned 20 years before you realized that you need "to trust him more than the people who claimed to know him". Indeed. Indeed. On the other hand, if we are truly walking forward on the path of learning and knowing and increasingly realizing our true nature, then 20 years is not actually that long a time. It's what life is made of. I fully confess that I am still learning, particularly about myself, and in recent years I continue to be blessed with many opportunities to be challenged internally about how I love others, and how I learn to love myself as God loves me.
"Your opinion on whether I'm right about this is irrelevant". Think you could possibly tweak this a bit? Because my opinion on this is extremely relevant, but to me. Maybe what you really mean is that "your opinion on this is not relevant to me". That's a statement I can fully embrace and respect, but I’m not all that excited about the idea that my opinion isn’t relevant full stop. It’s relevant to me, it’s relevant to God, and to be frank, you don’t need to invalidate my opinion to justify your own. That’s not how it works, imo.
(And if your belief requires you to adopt the viewpoint that "I am right and everyone else is wrong" and then assert that on to others, well, how that is any different from the attitude or behavior of those who think their view of God is right and anyone else, aka you, is wrong?)
Your pushback here is rather intense: "Your opinion doesn't matter, and when we are before God's judgment throne, I will still be right." I can understand that there is a lifetime of experience and journey (and sufferings, no doubt) behind that pushback, and I can accept that you may have reasons for this approach, but to echo your words, that's not really relevant to me. It’s also not necessary here, I think, but each to his own. Your choices.
"This knowledge is from him". In my experience, God raises and educates us continually on a journey and returning and being restored to him is an ongoing process. People thinking that because they experience something as correct and right and from God, that this must be true for everyone - This is one big problem in the entire religion & spiritual sphere.
There is a balance that needs to be sought, and it is ALL about taking personal responsibility for our choices and our beliefs. Failing to take responsibility for the beliefs I choose is foundational to all the relational conflict that emerge between people including in the sphere of religious or theological views.
This is not to say in any way that truth is relative. Truth is truth. But until you or I become an absolute person absolutely one with God, our view and understanding of truth is going to be inherently relative. That realization is what I am talking about when I say a balance is necessary. For us, truth is relative. And what’s important is: does my view of the truth bring me closer to God or further away? Ultimately, only God can know the answer to that, and even if someone else can know it, it is NOT someone else’s responsibility to decide.
God wants us each to have the sense of conviction that what we are convinced is true is true. How else could we commit to it, and God wants us to be committed, but more than our commitment to what we think is true, he wants us to be committed to him. It’s tricky though, because we identify and thus engage in a relationship with him only through our perception of truth. Nonetheless, God does not wish for us to impose our convictions on others in a way that overrides their responsibility or which ignores their responsibility to choose. (my opinion)
You may have very good reasons for the belief that you were "born gay" (whatever that means, a whole other discussion, but essentially that it is ‘an unchangeable aspect of your nature’(?). I empathize and sympathize with that. Moreover, I don't need you to either justify that belief to me or for me to accept that because this is 'true for you' it must be true for me. I'm OK with someone having a belief that is different to mine; my choices in faith are not predicated on some other people's acceptance or rejection of me because of those choices. And some choices come bundled with pain. In many cases, especially in the healing process, pain comes along with good choices.
What I'm saying here is, I’m really OK with the fact that there are and will be differences in our beliefs, about many different topics, not just this one. And, I think one factor there is that to me, you are not your beliefs, but rather, a child of God. As long as a person engages in their beliefs with the best integrity that they can muster, how could I not respect that or even thank God for that? It's the integrity and heart that we bring to our choices that count, because we will always make choices that are, in some cases, sub-optimal. Moreover, we also make choices that are the right choice [now], but which may no longer be the right choice [then].
If this was not true, we would be doomed to a hellish existence forever. Case in point: as children, we make certain [unconscious] choices in order to cope with the challenges and traumas and emotional injuries that we sustain growing up in ANY family that is not perfectly in unison with God's heart. But as we grow older, our unconscious mind will bring those choices to the surface, so that they can be altered or corrected once circumstances have changed.
Example: A child may develop a deep anger and resentment towards a parent who is being abusive in some way (deliberately or unconsciously), and that anger and resentful emotion may form a protective barrier to more hurt and injury, but once the child grows and is no long in a place where the parent's abusive behavior can have the same impact or influence, then the child will ONLY move forward by revisiting that anger and resentment, and working through it, and then making a different choice. (letting it go, finding love and forgiveness, etc)
Another example: a child may choose to believe "I am unlovable" based on all the information available at the time. They may feel unloved, and then choose to believe that on some level, because they feel that. But later on, they may find that what they saw and understood at the time, as a child, was not the whole picture. By expanding their view, he or she may find a different perspective and thereby choose a different view (belief) and find healing, and in healing, be able to live a better life and more credibly fulfill God's desire for him or her. So, I'm not going to assert that your belief is wrong. I don't need to and to me, it's not relevant here. What's most important for me, personally, at least in terms of who you are (theoretically, as we’re just nodes on some internet platform at this point), is that you are making the best choices you can with integrity.
I'm also not trying to imply you will CHANGE your choice or your belief in future... I'm just saying that whether your beliefs and choices are right or wrong on an absolute scale is purely for God to judge and access, and for you to live with. For me, whether your beliefs are right or wrong is not relevant (emphasis on 'for me'). I can accept and give thanks that you are doing your best to fulfill God's desire for you as best you can perceive it. If indeed you are. Can any of us do more than that? I don't see how I could.
I think we are on the same page here. I aspire to treat others with dignity (despite them often attempting to undermine their own dignity! kek), kindness and fairness. Well, no, not with fairness. "With generosity" is what I aspire to. Heaven knows, if things were fair, I'd be up the creek without a paddle!!!
But where generosity falls short, then yes, I guess fairness is at least a good minimum option.
That’s fine. That’s between God and you. It is neither for me to make your choices, or you to make mine. I'll strive to have same heart of God towards the choices of others that I think he has towards them. I try to imagine: how would he feel about this? After a lifetime of this, I feel like he shares with me – or rather, we feel the same way, about a lot of things. Ultimately, I can really only know or experience God’s heart through the respect, generosity, care and understanding that he continues to show towards me, and the heart I share towards others.
If we could all simply practice "love one another as I have loved you" we'd all be a LOT better off. Of course, that’s NOT simple. It’s gosh darn hard. Nonetheless, God’s love involves respecting people's responsibility, even if they fail it (we all do in some way). The responsibility to make choices is our Father's greatest gift to us, and he is very, very, very respectful of it - even when he doesn't like it or doesn’t agree. He won't violate it and he won’t intervene, unless he can do it with perfect integrity.
So whether we agree or not on this or that is beside the point. Having differences is not a bad thing, if they are united and dedicated to the same cause or purpose.
Thank you for sharing.
Be well, fren.
See my reply below yours. It would seem homosexuality is a judgement.
We still have to love the sinner, but perhaps it would be better if they did not practice it, in the same way unmarried hetero ppl should avoid fornication