You know what also isn't in the Bible? Sola Scriptura. Why have you taken it upon yourself to assume that is the default position unless stated otherwise?
The Church is the only reason you have a Bible. At best, you'd say God used the Church to compile it, but the truth remains that everything you believe is rooted in the Church. That means something. You don't just get to throw that 2000 years of history away (nor throw away the books that some random dude decides he didn't like 1500 years later).
What other institution has existed for 2000, or to make it more palatable for your Protestant disposition, 1700, years? All the corrupted deepstate ones are renamed and changed constantly, and they hide in the shadows. Seems like the Hand of God at work to me.
God is Lord of Truth, no? But if the Church is wrong, that means there weren't any true Christians for 1500ish years. Does that sounds like God leading His people to truth to you?
And do you really think everything Jesus Christ said is in the Bible? Seems like you don't have God's Word in its entirety. So what did He say that you and I weren't privy to? And what if one of the things He said outside the Bible was exactly what the Catholics have been saying for 2000 years?
What it comes down to is authority. A book has no authority. When you read the Bible, you disagree with 40 different groups on what the same passage means. Protestants have no authoritative beliefs in anything because it is all subjective. It is an egotistic position born out of a refusal to submit to any authority outside of the self. You aren't really submitting to God when you make yourself the authority on scripture. What you are doing is making yourself out to be God.
So it only makes sense God would create some authoritative way to know scripture. This is the Church. The Church must exist and be authoritative for the same reason the Bible must exist and be authoritative. There must be some external, objective thing for us to compare our own subjective interpretations to. Otherwise, we are just making things up and the fruits of that become apparent. Everyone believes something different, and no one knows what is true. The Bible alone is quite apparently not good enough at this, as every differing Protestant denomination demonstrates. God loves 3s, does He not? Bible, Church, and Holy Spirit are the way we learn about the God. The trinities truly never end (you can thank the Church for deciphering that one, too).
Seriously, the level of hubris it must take to think you know better than the entire history of Church fathers who spent their whole lives dedicated to studying God and passing down the knowledge He shared with His original disciples. The entire foundation of Christianity was built by these men. All the most basic tenants of the Faith. To think we can just throw that out 1500 years later and figure it all out on our own, completely individually, and after we just rejected all the prior Truths of God we all always accepted, is patently absurd.
And speaking of fruits; what has the fruit of the reformation been? Obviously, correlation doesn't equal causation, but where are we today? Seemingly living in the new dark ages and in a time of certain moral decay. Though the world is the world. Of course it is evil. But look at Christianity as well. That too is falling to decadence and vice, seemingly led by certain Protestant denominations first and foremost.
The end stage of Protestantism is the non-denominational churches where you go in, get blasted by fog machines, turn off your brain and tune out listening to rock music, and go home having actually thought about God maybe once the whole time. Or the prosperity gospel. There's certainly a reason that these kinds of things crop up the further we go down the Reformation path.
Wait so you're saying "Sola Scriptura" which means our standards should come from scripture alone...... isn't in the Bible which means you are advocating that my standard should only come from scripture? That's a long way around of saying you agree with me.... or you're a hypocrite.
"The Bible" isn't in the Bible either bud. Neither is the trinity, and yet we can rub a couple of brain cells together and understand it.
All the people who rubbed those brain cells together were Catholics. As I said, every foundational belief of Christianity comes from Catholics.
No, not really. The Bible does not tell us the correct way to view the Bible, so Sola Scriptura is false, is what I'm saying. My comment here was meant as a semi-comprehensive defense of the Church. My ultimate point is that the authority of the Church is what validates the Bible. The Church must have authority for the Bible to have authority.
Further, to just assume the Bible is all we should look to for authority, is unproven. It requires deeper examination than just assuming it is the default position unless proven otherwise.
I mean, who are we to decide how things should be and which things require evidence versus which things are assumed to be the case in lieu of evidence? That's for God to decide. And the fact the Bible doesn't say anything on itself is to me simply more evidence that the verification of the Bible is not solely contained in the Bible. If Sola Scriptura is correct, it would make an awful lot of sense to put everything solely in the Bible.
Edit to add: also, if it were the case that every individual could read scripture on their own and come to understand the authoritative truth, everyone would agree on doctrine. But instead, Protestants are all over the place and believe all manner of different things. This is because we are not the authority on God's Word, nor are we capable of fully understanding It on our own.
to just assume the Bible is all we should look to for authority, is unproven.
Proof pre-supposes God. God has conveyed His word through history.
I see your issue, you don't believe God is sovereign enough to convey His word. That's not the God of scripture and certainly not the one I believe in.
"Test everything against scripture" is literally in the Bible. You are saying the apostles were wrong.
Yes, and all doctrine of the Church can be tested against the Bible and be found to be fully compatible and non-contradictory.
The Church is one of the only pieces of history that still actively exists. Sounds like you're arguing my point for me here.
You are such a nasty, uncharitable person. Downvote every comment. Throw accusations. And argue in a way clearly meant to shove your point of view down everyone else's throats. You categorically refuse to acknowledge or debate any point made that doesn't benefit your argument in some way.
You treat God like politics and it shows.
Now answer my questions or leave. Why do protestants all believe different things if God is accurately conveying His Word to them? Your toxic accusation that I believe He can't is laughable and patently false; He can, He just clearly doesn't in the way you claim. And you have failed completely and utterly to in any way show that He does.
You know what also isn't in the Bible? Sola Scriptura. Why have you taken it upon yourself to assume that is the default position unless stated otherwise?
The Church is the only reason you have a Bible. At best, you'd say God used the Church to compile it, but the truth remains that everything you believe is rooted in the Church. That means something. You don't just get to throw that 2000 years of history away (nor throw away the books that some random dude decides he didn't like 1500 years later).
What other institution has existed for 2000, or to make it more palatable for your Protestant disposition, 1700, years? All the corrupted deepstate ones are renamed and changed constantly, and they hide in the shadows. Seems like the Hand of God at work to me.
God is Lord of Truth, no? But if the Church is wrong, that means there weren't any true Christians for 1500ish years. Does that sounds like God leading His people to truth to you?
And do you really think everything Jesus Christ said is in the Bible? Seems like you don't have God's Word in its entirety. So what did He say that you and I weren't privy to? And what if one of the things He said outside the Bible was exactly what the Catholics have been saying for 2000 years?
What it comes down to is authority. A book has no authority. When you read the Bible, you disagree with 40 different groups on what the same passage means. Protestants have no authoritative beliefs in anything because it is all subjective. It is an egotistic position born out of a refusal to submit to any authority outside of the self. You aren't really submitting to God when you make yourself the authority on scripture. What you are doing is making yourself out to be God.
So it only makes sense God would create some authoritative way to know scripture. This is the Church. The Church must exist and be authoritative for the same reason the Bible must exist and be authoritative. There must be some external, objective thing for us to compare our own subjective interpretations to. Otherwise, we are just making things up and the fruits of that become apparent. Everyone believes something different, and no one knows what is true. The Bible alone is quite apparently not good enough at this, as every differing Protestant denomination demonstrates. God loves 3s, does He not? Bible, Church, and Holy Spirit are the way we learn about the God. The trinities truly never end (you can thank the Church for deciphering that one, too).
Seriously, the level of hubris it must take to think you know better than the entire history of Church fathers who spent their whole lives dedicated to studying God and passing down the knowledge He shared with His original disciples. The entire foundation of Christianity was built by these men. All the most basic tenants of the Faith. To think we can just throw that out 1500 years later and figure it all out on our own, completely individually, and after we just rejected all the prior Truths of God we all always accepted, is patently absurd.
And speaking of fruits; what has the fruit of the reformation been? Obviously, correlation doesn't equal causation, but where are we today? Seemingly living in the new dark ages and in a time of certain moral decay. Though the world is the world. Of course it is evil. But look at Christianity as well. That too is falling to decadence and vice, seemingly led by certain Protestant denominations first and foremost.
The end stage of Protestantism is the non-denominational churches where you go in, get blasted by fog machines, turn off your brain and tune out listening to rock music, and go home having actually thought about God maybe once the whole time. Or the prosperity gospel. There's certainly a reason that these kinds of things crop up the further we go down the Reformation path.
Wait so you're saying "Sola Scriptura" which means our standards should come from scripture alone...... isn't in the Bible which means you are advocating that my standard should only come from scripture? That's a long way around of saying you agree with me.... or you're a hypocrite.
"The Bible" isn't in the Bible either bud. Neither is the trinity, and yet we can rub a couple of brain cells together and understand it.
All the people who rubbed those brain cells together were Catholics. As I said, every foundational belief of Christianity comes from Catholics.
No, not really. The Bible does not tell us the correct way to view the Bible, so Sola Scriptura is false, is what I'm saying. My comment here was meant as a semi-comprehensive defense of the Church. My ultimate point is that the authority of the Church is what validates the Bible. The Church must have authority for the Bible to have authority.
Further, to just assume the Bible is all we should look to for authority, is unproven. It requires deeper examination than just assuming it is the default position unless proven otherwise.
I mean, who are we to decide how things should be and which things require evidence versus which things are assumed to be the case in lieu of evidence? That's for God to decide. And the fact the Bible doesn't say anything on itself is to me simply more evidence that the verification of the Bible is not solely contained in the Bible. If Sola Scriptura is correct, it would make an awful lot of sense to put everything solely in the Bible.
Edit to add: also, if it were the case that every individual could read scripture on their own and come to understand the authoritative truth, everyone would agree on doctrine. But instead, Protestants are all over the place and believe all manner of different things. This is because we are not the authority on God's Word, nor are we capable of fully understanding It on our own.
Proof pre-supposes God. God has conveyed His word through history.
I see your issue, you don't believe God is sovereign enough to convey His word. That's not the God of scripture and certainly not the one I believe in.
"Test everything against scripture" is literally in the Bible. You are saying the apostles were wrong.
Yes, and all doctrine of the Church can be tested against the Bible and be found to be fully compatible and non-contradictory.
The Church is one of the only pieces of history that still actively exists. Sounds like you're arguing my point for me here.
You are such a nasty, uncharitable person. Downvote every comment. Throw accusations. And argue in a way clearly meant to shove your point of view down everyone else's throats. You categorically refuse to acknowledge or debate any point made that doesn't benefit your argument in some way.
You treat God like politics and it shows.
Now answer my questions or leave. Why do protestants all believe different things if God is accurately conveying His Word to them? Your toxic accusation that I believe He can't is laughable and patently false; He can, He just clearly doesn't in the way you claim. And you have failed completely and utterly to in any way show that He does.