Christians have been targeted by Evil ever since Day One, because Christians believe in and teach LOVE for others.
That is the important, worldly part of Christianity. Christians aren't persecuted because they are going to Heaven; they are persecuted because here, in THIS world, they believe in and teach LOVE -- and that requires that they not align themselves with cruelty and other evil -- which almost always includes the State.
The same is true for other true religions -- that is, religions that teach LOVE instead of accepting and teaching malice. Align yourself with Evil in this world and you're usually left alone; refuse Evil, preach and practice love and compassion, and [they] come after you.
My fondest hope for the Great Awakening is that it bring an END to that, so that decent, compassionate people are left alone and unharmed because Evil no longer has such power in this world.
So everyone on this board is going to Hell in a handbasket then, I take it. All of America is cursed because our ancestors fought the Authority of the British Empire.
Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation.
Naturally, we are not to obey any laws which would cause us to sin, but outside of this, we are called to obey the government.
MOST of today's laws and regulations ARE SINS -- they harm the innocent, steal from the productive to wreak havoc in aggressive wars and among the American people with "regulation" that harms the masses while enriching the hyper-wealthy, and so on.
The now-mostly-forgotten Common Law was a reasonable framework, and Jesus' single new Commandment (to love one another) is truly ALL we need for the base of a legal framework, since Love includes allowing others their Freedom (you don't enslave, harm, steal from, or tyrannize those you love).
As Cicero pointed out: The more laws, the more corruption. What does that make modern America, for instance?
Even in Jesus' day, governments were nightmares of corruption, cruelty, and evil. I've always questioned those two verses; I can't comment on the translation but the plain-text reading of them is simply WRONG and I can't help but wonder if a scribe or whoever wrote them (don't say "God" because human hands wrote the words and humans do NOT always get things right -- not to mention all the tinkering that was done as time went on) was perhaps either describing something that SHOULD and WOULD be right IF the world were a healthy place instead of being run by criminals and psychopaths, AND/OR was trying to shield the young Christian movement from government attacks and outright democide.
John: 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Ignoring what the passage says is akin to saying that when the bible calls homosexuality an abomination, it doesn't really mean it.
There's no two ways about what is being said, as is the case in many passages. The obvious solution here is that the Bible is right while you are wrong, and that when it says you will purchase damnation for disobeying the government, it means that government is an inherent good (when rightly ordered). Also, how can one disobey every worldly authority and then honestly claim that they'd "obey God and only God".
Further, it is patently obvious that permissiveness and "freedom to do whatever I want" doesn't lead to moral societies. Having the freedom to shoot up heroin on the streets while taking a shit has destroyed democrat-run cities, despite the fact that neither of those things "enslave, harm, steal from, or tyrannize those you love". In short, I've never seen an example of a morally permissive society that was successful long term.
Regulations are not sinful. It is not a sin for the government to require a license to fish, for example, and it is also not a sin to get such a license. Therefore, it is a sin to not obey such a law. The same goes for harmful business regulations. It's not great, and the laws should be changed, but until such a time they should be obeyed since it's not a sin to follow such regulations (generally).
Ultimately, the government compelling doctors to inject poison into people is one thing. The government doing shit we don't like is another. Whether we like it or not, and I'm sure this won't be popular around here, the Christian answer is to obey such laws, not disobey them "because freedom". Changing them is obviously preferable.
Edit to add: The Bible is perfect, unchanged, and scribes didn't mess it up. God made sure of this, since if He didn't the Bible would be useless.
Edit 2: I'd also point out that there are plenty of cases of seemingly conflicting verses in the Bible. They always can be reconciled, and in this case, the reconciliation of Romans 13 with verses like John 13:34-35 is that government is good and loving each other isn't actually the only thing to do. The point is just that without love, all the other laws are useless.
Ultimately, the government compelling doctors to inject poison into people is one thing. The government doing shit we don't like is another. Whether we like it or not, and I'm sure this won't be popular around here, the Christian answer is to obey such laws, not disobey them "because freedom". Changing them is obviously preferable.
So, you are saying that "injecting poison" is something that YOU get to decide to disobey, but other things not? How does that work if the Bible is "perfect, unchanged, and scribes didn't mess it up."
I disagree with your entire interpretation here. Government, as we have known it, is coercion, and coercion is a crime. That's no way to run a society, and because it ATTRACTS and EMPOWERS psychopaths and sociopaths, governments have always been criminal enterprises and typically mass-murderers. Jesus was murdered by Roman government soldiers, as were many (millions?) of people in Rome and Roman territories who did not deserve such punishment.
If the US government, or your local city council for that matter, ordered you to murder children, would you?
Do you actually believe that God would WANT YOU TO just because "He" told you to obey the government?
God gave us free will and a conscience. Not using them to obey Jesus commandment that we "Love one another" is a sin.
(I made a somewhat separate, more religious, and what I believe to be better and more concise argument at the bottom (in contrast with my original argument which is intended as more of a logical and historical argument). If my admittedly overly dense reply is too off-putting, feel free to just read that. Or just read nothing and leave if you don't think it's worth the time anymore; you do you man.)
Government defines crime. If government is itself coercion, then coercion can't be a crime. Truly, there is only one law: God's law. And He tells us to obey the government. Any other concept of "natural law", at least when not rooted in God's law, is the subjective opinion of the person philosophizing on it.
Now, knowingly injecting yourself with poison would be defiling the body. This is a sin. The only government laws that can be justly ignored are ones which require the individual to personally sin. It couldn't be any other way, because if it were, we'd be ignoring superior commands of God to not sin. But in lieu of a certain law requiring us to sin, the commandment to obey the government applies.
The Gospels take great care to consistently blame the Jews for demanding the Romans to kill Christ. The Romans aren't really blamed all that much, and Jesus shows more respect for a Roman soldier than for the Pharisees. They didn't really want to kill Him, and simply didn't care, for the most part. In this case, ironically enough, the government was coerced into killing Christ since if they didn't, they'd have a Jewish revolt on their hands. It was wrong and corrupt, but it was easier to appease the people by killing who they thought was just some man than to risk unrest.
And this extreme anti-government view is not based in reality, from my perspective at least. There have absolutely been good governments that lead to good societies. We live in extremely immoral times, things were invariably better through most of human history. The only problem is just that these good governments don't last. The thing is, they will never last. It's not about finding a good system that lasts forever, it's about finding the system that has the best trade off between how long it stays good and how bad the fallout is before recovery to a good system.
A system that produces a golden age for 1000 years but kills 3 billion people out of 8 billion when it falls is far worse than a system that produces a golden age for 300 years but only kills 12 people out of 8 billion when it collapses, for example. Still 12 people too many, but not nearly as heinous, and works much better in the long run.
Further, there's a reason you don't see societies with no or minimal government. They either don't last or don't work, though to be honest there isn't really a difference. It's the same reason we don't see any longstanding societies that tolerate homosexuality: it just doesn't work. They both inevitably lead to the same kind of moral degeneracy that collapsed the Roman Empire.
And where am I being unclear? The government can not compel us to sin. That is it. All other laws are to be followed. Get the hell out of here with this "murder children" shit.
Now, this doesn't mean we can't try to change laws, as in our system we have the ability to do so by voting in different people, but disobeying laws we don't like as an act of civil disobedience is not Christian. Disobeying laws that compel us to sin, and accepting the worldly punishment for doing so, certainly is Christian, however.
Ultimately, it's not hard. It's not subjective. It just requires the question of "would it be a sin for me to do this".
And please, since you glossed over my point on this, explain to me how a good society can run on the "peace and love" hippie crap when we have homeless people shitting in the streets and shooting up heroin in democrat run cities. These people aren't victims of government, everyone else are victims of a lack of competent government in these cities.
Again, these people aren't doing anything directly to anyone else, other than being disgusting in public. So unless you think that should be tolerated, we already have an example where government is necessary to impose decency through the legislation of morality.
-------------------Addendum-------------------
I'd also add that the extreme anti-government sentiment is wholly unchristian. Where is this in the Bible? Where does God tell us this is what He wants from us? He doesn't. It's just people imposing their will and their views onto God so that they can keep their beliefs compatible instead of choosing one.
Instead, we are told things like in Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2:13-17
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
And then there is 1 Peter 2:18-25
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh. For this is commendable, if a man for conscience toward God endures grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when you be buffeted for your faults, you shall take it patiently? but if, when you do well, and suffer for it, you take it patiently, this is commendable with God. For even to this were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judges righteously: Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed. For you were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
We are consistently called to suffer for God, just as He suffered for us. Christ was our perfect model to live by, and He didn't revolt against an unjust government, He ceded to their authority. He allowed Himself to be killed, though not until the appointed time, for a greater purpose.
And to be clear, this obviously has to be reconciled with the commands to not sin. The only real good way to view this is that we're being told primarily to not sin, and secondarily to obey government. The Bible does this frequently. Commands are made as absolute, but there's nuance that has to be deduced to know what is actually being said.
[they] hate Christians...period. There's ONLY one entity who hates us more than [they] do, and he just happens to be the one [they] follow. Nationality doesn't matter. [they] targeted Europe first because that's where most of the political and religious power was at the time [they] went mainstream with Freemasonry and the Illuminati.
Christians have been targeted by Evil ever since Day One, because Christians believe in and teach LOVE for others.
That is the important, worldly part of Christianity. Christians aren't persecuted because they are going to Heaven; they are persecuted because here, in THIS world, they believe in and teach LOVE -- and that requires that they not align themselves with cruelty and other evil -- which almost always includes the State.
The same is true for other true religions -- that is, religions that teach LOVE instead of accepting and teaching malice. Align yourself with Evil in this world and you're usually left alone; refuse Evil, preach and practice love and compassion, and [they] come after you.
My fondest hope for the Great Awakening is that it bring an END to that, so that decent, compassionate people are left alone and unharmed because Evil no longer has such power in this world.
Romans 13 tells us that the State is good and that we are to obey it.
So everyone on this board is going to Hell in a handbasket then, I take it. All of America is cursed because our ancestors fought the Authority of the British Empire.
Etc.
Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation.
Naturally, we are not to obey any laws which would cause us to sin, but outside of this, we are called to obey the government.
MOST of today's laws and regulations ARE SINS -- they harm the innocent, steal from the productive to wreak havoc in aggressive wars and among the American people with "regulation" that harms the masses while enriching the hyper-wealthy, and so on.
The now-mostly-forgotten Common Law was a reasonable framework, and Jesus' single new Commandment (to love one another) is truly ALL we need for the base of a legal framework, since Love includes allowing others their Freedom (you don't enslave, harm, steal from, or tyrannize those you love).
As Cicero pointed out: The more laws, the more corruption. What does that make modern America, for instance?
Even in Jesus' day, governments were nightmares of corruption, cruelty, and evil. I've always questioned those two verses; I can't comment on the translation but the plain-text reading of them is simply WRONG and I can't help but wonder if a scribe or whoever wrote them (don't say "God" because human hands wrote the words and humans do NOT always get things right -- not to mention all the tinkering that was done as time went on) was perhaps either describing something that SHOULD and WOULD be right IF the world were a healthy place instead of being run by criminals and psychopaths, AND/OR was trying to shield the young Christian movement from government attacks and outright democide.
John: 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Ignoring what the passage says is akin to saying that when the bible calls homosexuality an abomination, it doesn't really mean it.
There's no two ways about what is being said, as is the case in many passages. The obvious solution here is that the Bible is right while you are wrong, and that when it says you will purchase damnation for disobeying the government, it means that government is an inherent good (when rightly ordered). Also, how can one disobey every worldly authority and then honestly claim that they'd "obey God and only God".
Further, it is patently obvious that permissiveness and "freedom to do whatever I want" doesn't lead to moral societies. Having the freedom to shoot up heroin on the streets while taking a shit has destroyed democrat-run cities, despite the fact that neither of those things "enslave, harm, steal from, or tyrannize those you love". In short, I've never seen an example of a morally permissive society that was successful long term.
Regulations are not sinful. It is not a sin for the government to require a license to fish, for example, and it is also not a sin to get such a license. Therefore, it is a sin to not obey such a law. The same goes for harmful business regulations. It's not great, and the laws should be changed, but until such a time they should be obeyed since it's not a sin to follow such regulations (generally).
Ultimately, the government compelling doctors to inject poison into people is one thing. The government doing shit we don't like is another. Whether we like it or not, and I'm sure this won't be popular around here, the Christian answer is to obey such laws, not disobey them "because freedom". Changing them is obviously preferable.
Edit to add: The Bible is perfect, unchanged, and scribes didn't mess it up. God made sure of this, since if He didn't the Bible would be useless.
Edit 2: I'd also point out that there are plenty of cases of seemingly conflicting verses in the Bible. They always can be reconciled, and in this case, the reconciliation of Romans 13 with verses like John 13:34-35 is that government is good and loving each other isn't actually the only thing to do. The point is just that without love, all the other laws are useless.
So, you are saying that "injecting poison" is something that YOU get to decide to disobey, but other things not? How does that work if the Bible is "perfect, unchanged, and scribes didn't mess it up."
I disagree with your entire interpretation here. Government, as we have known it, is coercion, and coercion is a crime. That's no way to run a society, and because it ATTRACTS and EMPOWERS psychopaths and sociopaths, governments have always been criminal enterprises and typically mass-murderers. Jesus was murdered by Roman government soldiers, as were many (millions?) of people in Rome and Roman territories who did not deserve such punishment.
If the US government, or your local city council for that matter, ordered you to murder children, would you?
Do you actually believe that God would WANT YOU TO just because "He" told you to obey the government?
God gave us free will and a conscience. Not using them to obey Jesus commandment that we "Love one another" is a sin.
(I made a somewhat separate, more religious, and what I believe to be better and more concise argument at the bottom (in contrast with my original argument which is intended as more of a logical and historical argument). If my admittedly overly dense reply is too off-putting, feel free to just read that. Or just read nothing and leave if you don't think it's worth the time anymore; you do you man.)
Government defines crime. If government is itself coercion, then coercion can't be a crime. Truly, there is only one law: God's law. And He tells us to obey the government. Any other concept of "natural law", at least when not rooted in God's law, is the subjective opinion of the person philosophizing on it.
Now, knowingly injecting yourself with poison would be defiling the body. This is a sin. The only government laws that can be justly ignored are ones which require the individual to personally sin. It couldn't be any other way, because if it were, we'd be ignoring superior commands of God to not sin. But in lieu of a certain law requiring us to sin, the commandment to obey the government applies.
The Gospels take great care to consistently blame the Jews for demanding the Romans to kill Christ. The Romans aren't really blamed all that much, and Jesus shows more respect for a Roman soldier than for the Pharisees. They didn't really want to kill Him, and simply didn't care, for the most part. In this case, ironically enough, the government was coerced into killing Christ since if they didn't, they'd have a Jewish revolt on their hands. It was wrong and corrupt, but it was easier to appease the people by killing who they thought was just some man than to risk unrest.
And this extreme anti-government view is not based in reality, from my perspective at least. There have absolutely been good governments that lead to good societies. We live in extremely immoral times, things were invariably better through most of human history. The only problem is just that these good governments don't last. The thing is, they will never last. It's not about finding a good system that lasts forever, it's about finding the system that has the best trade off between how long it stays good and how bad the fallout is before recovery to a good system.
A system that produces a golden age for 1000 years but kills 3 billion people out of 8 billion when it falls is far worse than a system that produces a golden age for 300 years but only kills 12 people out of 8 billion when it collapses, for example. Still 12 people too many, but not nearly as heinous, and works much better in the long run.
Further, there's a reason you don't see societies with no or minimal government. They either don't last or don't work, though to be honest there isn't really a difference. It's the same reason we don't see any longstanding societies that tolerate homosexuality: it just doesn't work. They both inevitably lead to the same kind of moral degeneracy that collapsed the Roman Empire.
And where am I being unclear? The government can not compel us to sin. That is it. All other laws are to be followed. Get the hell out of here with this "murder children" shit.
Now, this doesn't mean we can't try to change laws, as in our system we have the ability to do so by voting in different people, but disobeying laws we don't like as an act of civil disobedience is not Christian. Disobeying laws that compel us to sin, and accepting the worldly punishment for doing so, certainly is Christian, however.
Ultimately, it's not hard. It's not subjective. It just requires the question of "would it be a sin for me to do this".
And please, since you glossed over my point on this, explain to me how a good society can run on the "peace and love" hippie crap when we have homeless people shitting in the streets and shooting up heroin in democrat run cities. These people aren't victims of government, everyone else are victims of a lack of competent government in these cities.
Again, these people aren't doing anything directly to anyone else, other than being disgusting in public. So unless you think that should be tolerated, we already have an example where government is necessary to impose decency through the legislation of morality.
-------------------Addendum-------------------
I'd also add that the extreme anti-government sentiment is wholly unchristian. Where is this in the Bible? Where does God tell us this is what He wants from us? He doesn't. It's just people imposing their will and their views onto God so that they can keep their beliefs compatible instead of choosing one.
Instead, we are told things like in Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2:13-17
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
And then there is 1 Peter 2:18-25
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh. For this is commendable, if a man for conscience toward God endures grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when you be buffeted for your faults, you shall take it patiently? but if, when you do well, and suffer for it, you take it patiently, this is commendable with God. For even to this were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judges righteously: Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed. For you were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
We are consistently called to suffer for God, just as He suffered for us. Christ was our perfect model to live by, and He didn't revolt against an unjust government, He ceded to their authority. He allowed Himself to be killed, though not until the appointed time, for a greater purpose.
And to be clear, this obviously has to be reconciled with the commands to not sin. The only real good way to view this is that we're being told primarily to not sin, and secondarily to obey government. The Bible does this frequently. Commands are made as absolute, but there's nuance that has to be deduced to know what is actually being said.
[they] hate Christians...period. There's ONLY one entity who hates us more than [they] do, and he just happens to be the one [they] follow. Nationality doesn't matter. [they] targeted Europe first because that's where most of the political and religious power was at the time [they] went mainstream with Freemasonry and the Illuminati.
Also see French Revolution.