The German Resistance was organized with a provisional government to replace the Nazis. I don't remember which American patriots were in favor of accepting Rommel's and the Resistance's surrender. What I remember is that Roosevelt nixed it, "unconditional surrender" of the Nazi regime, rather than eliminating the Nazi regime with the German people!
SO D-Day, so more war, so Stalin gets half of Europe??
Trying to remember all my reading, but there were many who wanted to accept Rommel's surrender in the US Government. Eisenhower?
would be interesting to read more if you remember reading material! … . if nazis had been replaced & Germany /Soviets standoff have been resolved differently - would have been a different world
I think FDR just wanted to minimize Churchill /London & he favored Joe Stalin, & FDR held a lot of the cards
sometimes I forget about that aspect of the communist advisors in FDR admin. - Venona documents /papers was interesting reading / an imp part if not in full vindication of Senator McCarthy, who was carrying on the anti-communist work of Representatives JFK and Nixon
My Dad was so discouraged that the Truth he knew was not taught and was suppressed. I took his knowledge and read and read, and found sources for what he claimed, and I told him: the books are out there! The truth is out there! But not easy to find and explain to the normies and the propagandized.
when I teach, I’ve got to go back to school and I am 50/50 quiet /outgoing, so I’ve got to get motivated, my other idea is a masters and library science and preserve as much material as possible - well, do this with the memory and mind of those who served including your Dad
It was a race to the East. The Russians were not going to stop until they contacted our vanguard. Rommel was found out and had to kill himself. If lives were of concern, the history since 1939 was that they were of no concern to the German government. Who put the Nazis in power? The German people. It is really hard to argue that there were "innocent" civilians in Germany. Innocent of what? Nazi dictatorship? War? Genocide? The Germans were crushed by a war of their own making, even though never imagining that it would turn against them. Plenty of powerless individuals swept up in the death and destruction, but---as we now like to say---elections have consequences.
It took only a majority of Germans and they had his book there to read. He made no secret of what he meant to do. And they were quite content when the game was rolling their way. Who else was responsible? No one?
What "sophisticated resistance"? I've done a lot of reading about the Third Reich and such a resistance never seemed prominent. The opportunity with Rommel was shaky to begin with, and he never had command of the whole army. There was only one major assassination attempt on Hitler and it failed. I think I read of a separate attempt, but it also fizzled. These are weak reeds to lean on.
You missed the point that Germany had, by circumstances, become a prize for the victors and the U.S. could not countenance the whole works being taken over by the Soviet Union. It was bad enough as it turned out.
ONE assassination attempt?? Read more books please.
"Germany had, by circumstances, become a prize for the victors and the U.S. could not countenance the whole works being taken over by the Soviet Union. It was bad enough as it turned out."
Yes the Allies after the war allowed and supported the rump state of Germany to exist again, as a boundary against Communism.
I.E. the same thing they could have accomplished by accepting the surrender of the German Resistance.
There was resistance in the German Intelligence division: "Hans Paul Oster was a German general in the Wehrmacht and a leading figure in the military resistance to Adolf Hitler. As deputy head of the counter‑espionage bureau in the Abwehr, he used his position to support and coordinate opposition activities under the cover of intelligence work. Oster played a central role in the Oster conspiracy of September 1938 and helped reorganize the resistance network at the outbreak of the Second World War"
AND due to his position he facilitated the transfer of many Jews out of harm throughout his term. He operated under the Nazi noses for years!
"Oster was arrested one day after the failed 20 July plot to assassinate Hitler."
The ALLIES knew who was in the German resistance, and guess what, they let the Nazis know whom to eliminate. Scandalous, when the Allies could have cooperated with the Resistance to END NAZISM.
There was also Admiral Carnaris, but what is your basis for claiming that the Allies put the finger on any resistance?
There was the famous unsuccessful bomb plot against Hitler. I think I recall someone trying to shoot him in public. Early in his Party career, before he came to power, Herman Goering took a bullet in the abdomen that had been meant for Hitler, which accounts in part for Hitler's toleration of Goering through later life. So many plots, so much pussy-footing, so little success. Trump has had two attempts, with no success. History records the successes, but seldom the failures.
How was this supposed to work out, with the Soviets coming like a steamroller out of the East? Put the surrendering German troops in the front lines, reinforce the retreating German opposition against the Russians, and incur their outrage at being betrayed by an Ally (us)? Being squeezed between two fronts meant that Nazism was dying anyway.
Too much of a pipe dream, when the battle is getting down to fatal events.
The BBC broadcast the names in the resistance after the failed Attentat of Jul 1944, names only known to them b/c the resistance contacted the Allies through numerous parties to end the war and oust Hitler.
The Soviet Union was an "ally" only of convenience and subjected Eastern Europe to Communism for 40 years. With the cooperation of the "Allies".
Really, what could the resistance have done? How would anything have changed?
Sneer at the Soviets if you will, but their 20 million losses and huge battle across the Eastern front give them every right to claim a victory over the German army. The Allies did not "cooperate" in the existence of the Soviet zone of occupation. They had no choice in the matter...unless you are going to argue that they should have announced war against Russia and used nuclear weapons. America was tired of war. Defeat of Germany was supposed to have been the final act of the war in the European theater. Fortunes of war. Was it worth the life of yet one more American soldier to continue beyond victory over Germany? (I know Patton argued in favor, but that was mainly an illustration of why Patton was ignored.)
FLIMSY?? An officer to turn over the front under his command was flimsy??? It was heroic! ROMMEL himself?? One of the most heroic and successful Generals?? Well that is the best he could offer, what he controlled, and with the Resistance offered a government free of Nazism. To end the war.
OH my! Dozens! [Unfortunately my library is in storage due to a house flood.]
Read everything you can find on the Resistance: the Attentat of 1944, von Stauffenberg, Canaris and Oster re intelligence:
"Being the head of Nazi Germany's military-intelligence agency, he was in a key position to participate in resistance and sabotage the Nazi war effort. As the war turned against Germany, Canaris and other military officers expanded their clandestine opposition to the leadership of Nazi Germany. By 1945, his acts of resistance and sabotage against the Nazi regime came to light and Canaris was hanged."
"The White Rose (Weiße Rose) was a non-violent, intellectual resistance group in Nazi Germany. Operating from Munich between June 1942 and February 1943, they authored, printed, and distributed six anti-Nazi leaflets that condemned the regime’s atrocities and called on the German public to actively oppose"
"Dietrich Bonhoeffer was hanged on April 9, 1945, at the Flossenbürg concentration camp because of his active involvement in the German military resistance against Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime."
"Catholic priest called Maximilian Kolbe. At Auschwitz he made the ultimate sacrifice, heroically volunteering to die to save the life of a stranger."
OH MY will you have to find these and many more books! MANY MORE books!
Well, I read a biography of Canaris. Very adroit maneuvering, but not in a position of strength. He was lucky not to have been uncovered earlier. His "acts" consisted more of disloyalty and negligence than anything overt. Passing along information, perhaps. Not a strong reed.
Nor the White Rose. Nor Bonhoeffer. Nor Kolbe. All heroic in their self-sacrifice, but that was all they accomplished.
The SS were beasts, but also fiendishly intelligent and effective about finding and dealing with traitors. The likelihood of failure and death was, I think, a great deterrent to direct action.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the scales were phenomenal men like Fritz Todt and Albert Speer. Speer alone probably prolonged the war by many months in his resourcefulness.
Why should we believe there was a plot to assassinate one of the world's greatest leaders? Who owns the school textbook publishing companies? And it's always the "winners" of wars who wrote the history books. The "winners" never, ever do anything bad, and the "losers" are always the most evil people to have ever been born.
The Attentat and other resistance to Nazism and attempts on Hitler's life were very serious and very real. I have read dozens of books about the German resistance etc. Biographies, accounts of people who were witnesses, later analysis, etc.
I frankly do not know what is in school "history" books about it. School books are not serious historical sources after all.
Start with a serious bio about von Stauffenberg. Claus Philipp Maria Justinian Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg who was shot on the day the coup failed. There is a statue of him in the Bendlerblock court yard where he was shot. Many others were arrested and killed later. "estimates of around 4,980 executions among the conspirators".
His wife: "Nina von Stauffenberg, the wife of Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg, was imprisoned by the Gestapo after her husband's failed assassination attempt on Adolf Hitler in 1944. She endured harsh treatment during her imprisonment and gave birth to her youngest child while incarcerated." In the chaos of the end of the war, her family finally located and rescued her: "She was reunited with her family after the war, when American forces arrived in Germany."
These are real people, whose stories of noble resistance deserve to be understood.
The German Resistance was organized with a provisional government to replace the Nazis. I don't remember which American patriots were in favor of accepting Rommel's and the Resistance's surrender. What I remember is that Roosevelt nixed it, "unconditional surrender" of the Nazi regime, rather than eliminating the Nazi regime with the German people!
SO D-Day, so more war, so Stalin gets half of Europe??
Trying to remember all my reading, but there were many who wanted to accept Rommel's surrender in the US Government. Eisenhower?
WHO BENEFITED from the deaths of so many men??
would be interesting to read more if you remember reading material! … . if nazis had been replaced & Germany /Soviets standoff have been resolved differently - would have been a different world
I think FDR just wanted to minimize Churchill /London & he favored Joe Stalin, & FDR held a lot of the cards
"he favored Joe Stalin, & FDR held a lot of the cards"
Uncle Joe was his favorite, and FDR had Communist advisers in his administration.
sometimes I forget about that aspect of the communist advisors in FDR admin. - Venona documents /papers was interesting reading / an imp part if not in full vindication of Senator McCarthy, who was carrying on the anti-communist work of Representatives JFK and Nixon
Read Witness by Whittaker Chambers! Well worth it!
An unwilling witness to the Communism then, he hid his documents in a pumpkin on his farm. Of course he was afraid for his life!
thanks! I would like to teach history in the future
That would be wonderful!
My Dad was so discouraged that the Truth he knew was not taught and was suppressed. I took his knowledge and read and read, and found sources for what he claimed, and I told him: the books are out there! The truth is out there! But not easy to find and explain to the normies and the propagandized.
when I teach, I’ve got to go back to school and I am 50/50 quiet /outgoing, so I’ve got to get motivated, my other idea is a masters and library science and preserve as much material as possible - well, do this with the memory and mind of those who served including your Dad
General Patton had a most unfortunate and unexpected accident.
He knew who the enemy was.
Oy vey.
...what's the profit in doing that...
You sly dog. I see what you did.
The plot failed,and Rommel committed suicide because of it.
That said,it was not our war or our problem,we should have left the tards to sort it out on their own.
Rommel, as one of Germany's most respected heroes, was permitted to commit suicide.
Yes, a foiled plot. Army huh< that makes sense.
It was a race to the East. The Russians were not going to stop until they contacted our vanguard. Rommel was found out and had to kill himself. If lives were of concern, the history since 1939 was that they were of no concern to the German government. Who put the Nazis in power? The German people. It is really hard to argue that there were "innocent" civilians in Germany. Innocent of what? Nazi dictatorship? War? Genocide? The Germans were crushed by a war of their own making, even though never imagining that it would turn against them. Plenty of powerless individuals swept up in the death and destruction, but---as we now like to say---elections have consequences.
so 100% of the Germans selected Hitler and the Nazis and knew what they were voting for??
so there was not a very significant resistance that tried in many ways to work WITH the Allies and tried in many ways to eliminate Hitler and Nazism??
so the Allies chose to not work with the sophisticated Resistance to end the war earlier??
It took only a majority of Germans and they had his book there to read. He made no secret of what he meant to do. And they were quite content when the game was rolling their way. Who else was responsible? No one?
What "sophisticated resistance"? I've done a lot of reading about the Third Reich and such a resistance never seemed prominent. The opportunity with Rommel was shaky to begin with, and he never had command of the whole army. There was only one major assassination attempt on Hitler and it failed. I think I read of a separate attempt, but it also fizzled. These are weak reeds to lean on.
You missed the point that Germany had, by circumstances, become a prize for the victors and the U.S. could not countenance the whole works being taken over by the Soviet Union. It was bad enough as it turned out.
ONE assassination attempt?? Read more books please.
"Germany had, by circumstances, become a prize for the victors and the U.S. could not countenance the whole works being taken over by the Soviet Union. It was bad enough as it turned out."
Yes the Allies after the war allowed and supported the rump state of Germany to exist again, as a boundary against Communism.
I.E. the same thing they could have accomplished by accepting the surrender of the German Resistance.
There was resistance in the German Intelligence division: "Hans Paul Oster was a German general in the Wehrmacht and a leading figure in the military resistance to Adolf Hitler. As deputy head of the counter‑espionage bureau in the Abwehr, he used his position to support and coordinate opposition activities under the cover of intelligence work. Oster played a central role in the Oster conspiracy of September 1938 and helped reorganize the resistance network at the outbreak of the Second World War"
AND due to his position he facilitated the transfer of many Jews out of harm throughout his term. He operated under the Nazi noses for years!
"Oster was arrested one day after the failed 20 July plot to assassinate Hitler."
The ALLIES knew who was in the German resistance, and guess what, they let the Nazis know whom to eliminate. Scandalous, when the Allies could have cooperated with the Resistance to END NAZISM.
There was also Admiral Carnaris, but what is your basis for claiming that the Allies put the finger on any resistance?
There was the famous unsuccessful bomb plot against Hitler. I think I recall someone trying to shoot him in public. Early in his Party career, before he came to power, Herman Goering took a bullet in the abdomen that had been meant for Hitler, which accounts in part for Hitler's toleration of Goering through later life. So many plots, so much pussy-footing, so little success. Trump has had two attempts, with no success. History records the successes, but seldom the failures.
How was this supposed to work out, with the Soviets coming like a steamroller out of the East? Put the surrendering German troops in the front lines, reinforce the retreating German opposition against the Russians, and incur their outrage at being betrayed by an Ally (us)? Being squeezed between two fronts meant that Nazism was dying anyway.
Too much of a pipe dream, when the battle is getting down to fatal events.
The BBC broadcast the names in the resistance after the failed Attentat of Jul 1944, names only known to them b/c the resistance contacted the Allies through numerous parties to end the war and oust Hitler.
The Soviet Union was an "ally" only of convenience and subjected Eastern Europe to Communism for 40 years. With the cooperation of the "Allies".
Really, what could the resistance have done? How would anything have changed?
Sneer at the Soviets if you will, but their 20 million losses and huge battle across the Eastern front give them every right to claim a victory over the German army. The Allies did not "cooperate" in the existence of the Soviet zone of occupation. They had no choice in the matter...unless you are going to argue that they should have announced war against Russia and used nuclear weapons. America was tired of war. Defeat of Germany was supposed to have been the final act of the war in the European theater. Fortunes of war. Was it worth the life of yet one more American soldier to continue beyond victory over Germany? (I know Patton argued in favor, but that was mainly an illustration of why Patton was ignored.)
I am not sneering at Soviets. Just saying that the USSR should not have been granted the peoples of Eastern Europe for 40 years.
Compare the Weimar era to after the NSDAP took power.
Peace transforming into a war of conquest. What is your point? The subject here is D-Day and the impracticality of taking up Rommel's flimsy offer.
The ethnic Germans that were in Poland wanted to be reunited, but the Polish government had other ideas.
FLIMSY?? An officer to turn over the front under his command was flimsy??? It was heroic! ROMMEL himself?? One of the most heroic and successful Generals?? Well that is the best he could offer, what he controlled, and with the Resistance offered a government free of Nazism. To end the war.
I guess I will have to read whatever book you read. What is it, may I ask?
OH my! Dozens! [Unfortunately my library is in storage due to a house flood.]
Read everything you can find on the Resistance: the Attentat of 1944, von Stauffenberg, Canaris and Oster re intelligence:
"Being the head of Nazi Germany's military-intelligence agency, he was in a key position to participate in resistance and sabotage the Nazi war effort. As the war turned against Germany, Canaris and other military officers expanded their clandestine opposition to the leadership of Nazi Germany. By 1945, his acts of resistance and sabotage against the Nazi regime came to light and Canaris was hanged."
"The White Rose (Weiße Rose) was a non-violent, intellectual resistance group in Nazi Germany. Operating from Munich between June 1942 and February 1943, they authored, printed, and distributed six anti-Nazi leaflets that condemned the regime’s atrocities and called on the German public to actively oppose"
"Dietrich Bonhoeffer was hanged on April 9, 1945, at the Flossenbürg concentration camp because of his active involvement in the German military resistance against Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime."
"Catholic priest called Maximilian Kolbe. At Auschwitz he made the ultimate sacrifice, heroically volunteering to die to save the life of a stranger."
OH MY will you have to find these and many more books! MANY MORE books!
Well, I read a biography of Canaris. Very adroit maneuvering, but not in a position of strength. He was lucky not to have been uncovered earlier. His "acts" consisted more of disloyalty and negligence than anything overt. Passing along information, perhaps. Not a strong reed.
Nor the White Rose. Nor Bonhoeffer. Nor Kolbe. All heroic in their self-sacrifice, but that was all they accomplished.
The SS were beasts, but also fiendishly intelligent and effective about finding and dealing with traitors. The likelihood of failure and death was, I think, a great deterrent to direct action.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the scales were phenomenal men like Fritz Todt and Albert Speer. Speer alone probably prolonged the war by many months in his resourcefulness.
Speer was an architect. Yes I read his book.
Why should we believe there was a plot to assassinate one of the world's greatest leaders? Who owns the school textbook publishing companies? And it's always the "winners" of wars who wrote the history books. The "winners" never, ever do anything bad, and the "losers" are always the most evil people to have ever been born.
The Attentat and other resistance to Nazism and attempts on Hitler's life were very serious and very real. I have read dozens of books about the German resistance etc. Biographies, accounts of people who were witnesses, later analysis, etc.
I frankly do not know what is in school "history" books about it. School books are not serious historical sources after all.
Start with a serious bio about von Stauffenberg. Claus Philipp Maria Justinian Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg who was shot on the day the coup failed. There is a statue of him in the Bendlerblock court yard where he was shot. Many others were arrested and killed later. "estimates of around 4,980 executions among the conspirators".
His wife: "Nina von Stauffenberg, the wife of Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg, was imprisoned by the Gestapo after her husband's failed assassination attempt on Adolf Hitler in 1944. She endured harsh treatment during her imprisonment and gave birth to her youngest child while incarcerated." In the chaos of the end of the war, her family finally located and rescued her: "She was reunited with her family after the war, when American forces arrived in Germany."
These are real people, whose stories of noble resistance deserve to be understood.