I started sharing the scriptural rebuttal of that doctrine a couple days ago. I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ. I love this debate too for as much as it encourages people to read and trust what the bible actually says, that it brings greater intimate knowledge of our savior.
But basically - Jesus and Paul and the book of revelations and many other scriptures make that doctrine plain false. If you want to see the debate and more of what I see in scripture follow the link below. God bless.
https://greatawakening.win/p/15HImDfGQW/i-dont-know-who-this-is-for-but-/
yes we are brothers in Christ. amen to that. And those are encouraging words. I think Daniel's words are encouraging too.
https://media.greatawakening.win/post/2MCaYzLSY6o0.jpeg
I don't think believing this doctrine would mean losing the Kingdom for someone like you or anyone willing to be persecuted to death for Him. I just think there will be a need for strong leaders in that time because it is God's will that none should perish but have eternal life. I think it is God's will that we help the lost in that day - not escape to the clouds and watch the beast consume them.
It looks blurry for me in preview but it's clear when I follow the link to the image.
I'm sorry. Pastor J.D. seems like a nice guy but this teaching is awful. I'm only recently learning about the rapture theorists confusion about the word apostasy.
I don't think they even get the irony (people teaching this) ... but anyway we STILL use the word "departure" in a spiritual sense. For example - emotional departure. It seems we're now confirming false prophecy based upon our own limited knowledge of our own language - as if departure must only be understood as physical - absurd!
The Catholic church didn't change the meaning of the word, they just lied about who it applies to. That's kind of like people claiming that God's commandments are just for the jews. Or for that matter, that only protestants are spared from tribulations. It's a splinter in the eye situation.
Once again, thank you for sharing. Genuinely, I love this interaction. Every time I watch another rapturist preacher I'm more confident the rapture doctrine is wrong and dangerous and possibly the motivation behind the warnings from Jesus "Do not be Deceived". And I just pray that they start taking their own advice about context, context, context, and letting Jesus and scripture be the authority.
The second video hangs on whether you want to believe this guy's definition of apostasy. He suggests the word "departure" like at an airport when you're going on vacation. And then with a crowbar, forces it into rapture theory.
Even in the Greek it does not mean a happy departure - it means an abandonment from what you once professed or claimed to believe.
KJ got it right with "falling away" and maybe the motivation was to put distance from a misunderstanding of the word departure.
I finally got time to watch the first vid. - I can see why many are confused. He reads right over "the dead in Christ shall rise first"... then insists this rapture event is happening before tribulations... before the second (third) coming. You can argue that the resurrection and the rapture are two separate events, but can you really say that Paul had them massively out of order?
At another point he says that they ask Jesus "Where Lord?" in Luke. He ignores most translations that have that "body" meaning a carcass and he assumes it is the Body of Christ, so Eagles fly, that must be the air ... moving on. This is terrible explaining. I still ponder the true meaning here. I think it is saying that this death he just prophesied will encompass the earth, there will be dead bodies everywhere and you'll be able to know from a distance because of the birds. Kind of like what happens after his actual second coming and the birds of earth are invited to feast on the flesh of those carcasses.
"they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw..." I think that colon : is there to help us understand that "they" are the ones described after the colon. and "they" lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. All the same people are 'they' in this verse.
The first resurrection described in Rev 20 (which includes those killed during the tribulations and the dead in Christ - all who have died since his sacrifice) is a great multitude plus, those who are alive when He returns "immediately after the tribulations" who are "caught up" as described in Thessalonians. That all happens before the marriage supper of the Lamb.
I think you asked about those souls under the alter in chapter 6. That group of martyrs was told to rest a little season longer after the fifth seal is broken. They're waiting for their brethren (more martyrs to come thru tribulations). I cannot claim to know how they got there or why. This is the throne room in heaven and John was delivered a detailed vision and it is full of difficult symbols. But I think we can assume they join the multitude who are in the first resurrection and go to the marriage supper too.
If you want to suggest there is a special rapture to get them there then the group is not just whatever we call "Christians" though. They were clearly slain for the word of God and their testimony. But even they are told to "rest" a while longer.
I went back and read Rev19 again. My attention is drawn to the beginning lines of chapters 19 and 18. So to get the full picture of what's going on we should look at 17, 18 and 19. In short, wrath is poured out upon Babylon and Babylon is fallen, is fallen.
Those opening lines give some order of events. "And after these things..." So Babylon is destroyed under the wrath of judgement before the "marriage supper of the Lamb".
And we saw that those who took part in the first resurrection are present in the kingdom before the wrath (Rev15) "standing on the sea of glass mixed with fire".
Obviously the "first resurrection of Rev20" is an event that happens before the wrath and before Babylon is fallen and before the marriage supper of the Lamb. It all works in order. There is no need for a rapture before the first resurrection.
We don't know how long after we enter into the kingdom will the marriage supper be. Kingdom time is going to be amazing for sure.
Rev 15 verses 1-2
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Wrath happens after the Kingdom is established and we are with God and singing praises for this judgement.
The sabbath is established in the creation week, and God's feasts are established by God as feasts. Jews made a mess of their covenant. What law did Cane violate? God's law was always present and always will be. There is no point in fooling ourselves about this. I am not saying that one must do this or that for salvation. But salvation is not the finish line. God has a purpose for you beyond living in paradise.
If pre-trip rapture were Jesus's plan then he could plainly state it. I'm not taking anything away from his prophecy. Not everything is meant to play out in chronological order - but some things are definitely put in a timeline position. The seals and trumpets give order but not time of occurrence. You just cannot have another resurrection before the one in Rev 20. So there can be many ways to analyze Rev19 but you can rule out that it implies an enormous rapture event without Jesus directly mentioning it.
Do you think observing passover is a work of the law? Was Jesus doing works of the law? Do you think that being law abiding is being discouraged here? I think James makes it clear that faith produces good works. If there are no good works then maybe the faith isn't there.
I agree. The "trinity" is another doctrine of the world that creeps into Christianity. Christians are easily pushed into false doctrine because we earnestly do not want to be seen as denying our lord and savior. Yes God is God the Father, Jesus, the Word (and the son of God) and the Holy Spirit but it is not a trio, they are ONE.
The cleansing of the church is going to be 'wild'
I mean he did not include it in Revelations, the book which he does include a curse for adding things to.
The "one shall be taken, one left behind" verses are more consistent with his teaching about the wheat and the tares. Rapturists are misusing those verses to promote their theory. In both Mathew and Luke those verses are connected in context to acts of judgement, the flood and the destruction of Sodom. Those being taken are not the ones being rescued. The ones being rescued are actually told to flee and they will be protected. That is consistent with Jesus's prophecy. He says woe to those who are in Judea, they should run for the mountains. He says you don't even have time to pack. Yet, we're supposed to say no that's just for the jews, see they're told to pray their flight is not on the sabbath. But aren't we supposed to be keeping the commandments which say to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy? We have layers of false doctrine confusing the church today.
I think the sabbath will be restored by the church during the tribulations... but that's a whole other discussion. short version, sun worship will not be brought into the kingdom.
Oh yeah... gog and magog are destroyed at the end of the 1000 years of satan's lockup. that is also clearly said in Revelations.
Lots of assumptions here. Why wouldn't Jesus just include the rapture in the timeline he taught? Instead he teaches a timeline that makes a pre-trib rapture impossible. It's his own prophecy. You're inadvertently suggesting that he both failed to mentioned it and warned us not to add anything to his prophecy, but at the same time expects us to stitch together vague clues? And for what. What purpose do we serve the Kingdom by being absent when the unsaved need us most? During the testing of the world in tribulations.
This is the creation of doctrine. I think these verses deserve deep study but we should not latch on to theories that draw a curse upon us as declared in verse 18 above. Adding a pre-trib rapture to this book is asking for trouble.
We're not given license to invent an enormous end times event that Jesus never declares. If he says we will be saved from the hour of temptation then we will be. But to leap to a special rescue because the word church is not used later, well it's strange.
I certainly don't have all of this book understood and I love testing people's theories. I just don't want theories that come with a curse for being wrong. Especially when Rev 20 is so clear and plain to read about the First resurrection. (The dead in Christ must go first before those who are alive.)
Sounds like the woman in the wilderness to me. From Hosea. I don't agree with those who claim the woman is only Jews/Israel.
We are not appointed to wrath. But we do seem to be confused about the wrath of God described in Revelations. It's not the tribulations and plagues that happen before the Kingdom.
This is just an observation. But I find it interesting when an "hour" is mentioned. Like the great city of Babylon which is destroyed in an hour. We will celebrate that hour from within the Kingdom according to Revelations. I forget which chapter right now.
I intend to keep reading and studying not because I have any worry about my own salvation. But because I want to be used however God wants to use me in bringing about his kingdom. And when I look at the scriptures I see Jesus warning us of severe tests of faith in the coming times. I don't see him saying that his warnings are just for the Jews or the unbeliever.
Actually. Consider them though. When the beast rises, some of them will reject the beast just from natural disgust for tyranny and degeneracy. And we are going to have a greater role in leading them to Christ. But not if we're unprepared. And certainly not if we're floating around in the clouds.
Well I watched it. Great production quality but I get a strong 'fake news' vibe from it. They hype the wedding theme as if it's a novel discovery unlocking some kind of mystery. But wedding themes are very common throughout prophecy and the biblical story of reconciliation. It's kind of strange for them to act like it's a huge earth shattering fresh detail. Since it's the most common symbol of the reunion. And wedding traditions have always kept traditions that symbolize becoming one with God.
They think that the tradition of carrying the bride can be likened to their imagination of a rapture. But it is really just a celebratory gathering of the wedding party. Has zero evidence of some kind of rescue before tribulations.
They never actually quote any of the scripture that makes the pre-trib rapture impossible. (Like Rev20)
Yeah also, what's the worst that can happen, you suffer a fraction of what Christ suffered? You die? Like everyone else since the beginning? Why are today's Christians thinking that their faith won't even be tested if they are so lucky to be awake and looking up at the right time? It has never been about rescuing the flesh.