I think we are not capable of understanding the true nature of the world. Science tells us that the universe was created in the Big Bang, and before that there was no space or time. Try imagining nothingness. No passage of time, no space and nothing exists until boom. I cannot. What does the word 'until' mean if there is no time?
That makes no sense to us. Also, if God in omnipotent, can he create stone so heavy he cannot lift it? I.E. if God is all powerful and good, how can he allow innocent children to be raped and tortured, which happens every fucking day?
I think we have to give up and realize we have limitations. We cannot understand everything. We play our roles and do the best we can. And maybe we can rise to the challenge and step out of safe space when we are called upon.
The answer to your second points about innocent children being harmed is not because of God. It is because he gave us free will. It is humans harming other humans by choice. Free will is one of the most fundamental forces in our universe. We all have the choice to do good or bad, it's up to us at the end of the day. God will not interfere with our free will that he gave us.
But if god is omnipotent, why would he give us free will? Surely he knows everything before we do and knows the decisions we will make before they happen. And if he knows all of this then we don’t have free will.
But you “knowing” is simply an assumption that isn’t necessarily true. Your kid could surprise you and heed your word. This community preaches about critical thinking and it is something we should apply even in religious context even if it goes against the beliefs we were raised on (just like Q challenged the life of illusion we were living prior. We now know the truth despite it seeming unrealistic). Not trying to raise hostilities, just pursuing the truth.
This is up for debate though. The words free will is never once said in the Bible...but “pre-destined” and the concept appears numerous times. Thats not to say I’m saying some sort of free agency definitely doesnt exist, I’m simply saying that its not definitive. At a minimum theres an interplay between Gods plans being uninterruptible and our choices that cant be fully grasped by us yet
The words free will don't need to be in the Bible. It is self-evident. Humans are not God. And humans act. There is no conceivable understanding of God that explains many - most? - of human decisions to act.
Conversely, there is ample evidence in the Bible which teaches, praises and warns about human decisions to act in this way or that way. Obviously, God has ceded decision-making to us.
Finally, neither are the words strawberry or cell tower in the Bible. Yet they exist.
I didnt point out it not being in the bible to say that is proof it doesnt exist...just that the opposite being in the bible and it not making the case for free will not as cut and dry as people make it out to be.
Certainly our choices at a minimum APPEAR free. But whether they are truly free or being guided in some way is not conclusive. Certainly God holds people responsible for their actions but theres also biblical evidence that God is predestining certain events (which could not have occurred absent certain choices by people). So it can get pretty complicated when you really start trying to explain it all. Im not saying i know the answer, I’m simply saying its not as simple as you make it out to be. This debate has been going on for centuries and even exists in Islam. We wont be able to solve it but certainly worth exploring
Deut. 30:19, Joshua 24:15, 1 Kings 18:23, Job 34:4, Job 34:33, Ps. 25:12 and there are more. The Jewish people (at least the sages) say "All is foreseen, yet
free will is given." Without at least some degree of 'free will' there is no choice.
She makes some great points.
I think we are not capable of understanding the true nature of the world. Science tells us that the universe was created in the Big Bang, and before that there was no space or time. Try imagining nothingness. No passage of time, no space and nothing exists until boom. I cannot. What does the word 'until' mean if there is no time?
That makes no sense to us. Also, if God in omnipotent, can he create stone so heavy he cannot lift it? I.E. if God is all powerful and good, how can he allow innocent children to be raped and tortured, which happens every fucking day?
I think we have to give up and realize we have limitations. We cannot understand everything. We play our roles and do the best we can. And maybe we can rise to the challenge and step out of safe space when we are called upon.
https://youtu.be/PEe-ZeVbTLo?t=256
The answer to your second points about innocent children being harmed is not because of God. It is because he gave us free will. It is humans harming other humans by choice. Free will is one of the most fundamental forces in our universe. We all have the choice to do good or bad, it's up to us at the end of the day. God will not interfere with our free will that he gave us.
But if god is omnipotent, why would he give us free will? Surely he knows everything before we do and knows the decisions we will make before they happen. And if he knows all of this then we don’t have free will.
I know my kid is going to try to sneak the chocolate even tho I told him not to. Kid still had the choice. Same with us.
But you “knowing” is simply an assumption that isn’t necessarily true. Your kid could surprise you and heed your word. This community preaches about critical thinking and it is something we should apply even in religious context even if it goes against the beliefs we were raised on (just like Q challenged the life of illusion we were living prior. We now know the truth despite it seeming unrealistic). Not trying to raise hostilities, just pursuing the truth.
Amen!
This is up for debate though. The words free will is never once said in the Bible...but “pre-destined” and the concept appears numerous times. Thats not to say I’m saying some sort of free agency definitely doesnt exist, I’m simply saying that its not definitive. At a minimum theres an interplay between Gods plans being uninterruptible and our choices that cant be fully grasped by us yet
The words free will don't need to be in the Bible. It is self-evident. Humans are not God. And humans act. There is no conceivable understanding of God that explains many - most? - of human decisions to act.
Conversely, there is ample evidence in the Bible which teaches, praises and warns about human decisions to act in this way or that way. Obviously, God has ceded decision-making to us.
Finally, neither are the words strawberry or cell tower in the Bible. Yet they exist.
I didnt point out it not being in the bible to say that is proof it doesnt exist...just that the opposite being in the bible and it not making the case for free will not as cut and dry as people make it out to be.
Certainly our choices at a minimum APPEAR free. But whether they are truly free or being guided in some way is not conclusive. Certainly God holds people responsible for their actions but theres also biblical evidence that God is predestining certain events (which could not have occurred absent certain choices by people). So it can get pretty complicated when you really start trying to explain it all. Im not saying i know the answer, I’m simply saying its not as simple as you make it out to be. This debate has been going on for centuries and even exists in Islam. We wont be able to solve it but certainly worth exploring
Deut. 30:19, Joshua 24:15, 1 Kings 18:23, Job 34:4, Job 34:33, Ps. 25:12 and there are more. The Jewish people (at least the sages) say "All is foreseen, yet free will is given." Without at least some degree of 'free will' there is no choice.
Yes, like i said there is evidence for both positions throughout...but neither position is iron clad