Can anyone help here? The list I had is not as good as I thought. I need to act quickly.
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Attorneys today are just like medical doctors today. They are taught a narrow slice of law, and all of it benefits the "machine," not the People.
I understand insurance companies. Without going into detail, I used to fight them on "legal grounds" but without literally legal grounds, since that was not my job. Bottom line: they are bullies who try to cheat everyone, but if you understand the law, they can be made to bend the knee and do what they are supposed to do -- usually, not always.
The situation we are all in now is similar. I know most people don't have a belief they can fight this on their own, which is what these companies are counting on.
But the attorneys are not that damn great, most of them. There are a few exceptions, of course, but it is the same small percentage as in the medical industry. By definition, most people are average, no matter what their chosen profession. And half of the rest are below average, by definition (basic bell curve).
They are operating in the USA, so that is what matters most, but probably helps that they are HQ in USA.
Of course, they have their organizational chart, and the people making the decisions don't want to get their hands dirty.
I was at a restaurant the other day, and it is a franchise setup. I know the owner of the franchise (not friends, but have had casual conversations before). I took him aside and asked him why he has his employees wearing face masks. He said it is "corporate." I asked if he would do it if it were up to him. He said no. Maybe he was lying, but he seemed genuine. These corporations make it tough to deal with by going through layers -- just like government.
Exactly correct. But don't assume they are brilliant. Some might be, but most are followers, just like everyone else.
Right. I have responded to some other anons here about similar situations. I don't know how those situations turned out. But here are a couple of threads, that might be of help in formulating your strategy:
https://greatawakening.win/p/12jcvRZIAA/i-work-for-a-corporate-giant-and/c/
https://greatawakening.win/p/13zzjnoP4s/need-a-little-help-husband-is-lo/c/
In a big company like yours, I would start with an email chain to the HR. They might or might not pass it along up the chain, but doesn't really matter.
I would be asking a series of questions "for clarification" (i.e. not being confrontational) -- at first.
At some point, I would forward that chain to the CEO, legal department, and the individual members of the Board of Directors, if and when I thought it was time to throw the Hail Mary. (Do something they are NOT expecting -- the members of the Board are NOT expecting to get a legal notice, for example.)
No matter what, getting a WRITTEN record of communication cannot hurt and can likely help later, if you pursue legal action.
The reality is we are in unchartered territory. Most attorneys are afraid to make waves. Any lawsuit will have to rely partly on common law principles (right to not be injected with an unknown substance which has no scientific basis to believe is safe or effective, coercion, violation of rights, fraud, etc.).
Today's attorneys are simply not taught to think like this. They are taught to "paint by numbers" and plug the round peg in the round hole, and the square peg in the square hole. They are not taught to think for themselves when it comes to FIGHTING AGAINST THE SYSTEM, which is what this is.
Takes balls and brains. Most of them are lacking.
BOTTOM LINE: They have NO legal authority to force an experimental drug on you. It is coercion. It is also fraud, since there is NO scientific basis to believe any of the claims they might make. Plus, at some point they will stop communication with you to protect their legal position, and that will show bad faith. All of these things are actionable in court. If the main priority is to get the vaxx mandate to go away and avoid firing/court, then probably getting them documentation that shows they are WRONG as a matter of fact, science, and law, might be the way to go.
Your "BOTTOM LINE" is indeed correct. It is coercion and being coerced to take it is a form of rape.
All your is stuff presented here is very good. No question about it. I take it you are not an attorney.
There's a dead line of December 27th. The corporate mandate is stated as follows:
The deadline is based on the Jan.06, 2022. I believe this relates to OSHA.
On Nov. 05, ND, SD, IA, MO, and some other states filed a lawsuit in the 8th Circuit Court. I don't know when this conservative Court is going to hear the case, but it includes my State of MN.
If you have info you can share with any research regarding Cease and Desist info regarding religious exemptions protecting job status I'll be happy to review it.
My family has always been unvaxxed. My children have never taken these jabs that pollute the temple of the Holy Spirit. We deeply believe this and have a long history of applying State laws regarding Religious exemptions at my children's Baptist private school. Furthermore, we not only believe human aborted fetuses in the development of vaccines is an abomination to the Holy Spirit, but we deeply believe a toxin that rewrites the code of life (DNA) and alters natural immunity is evil. My wife and I have "COVID" last December and our immune systems are now immune to it.
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Finally, I will say that you need to map out your strategy.
Start nicey-nice, and increase the intensity as needed.
HR and immediate boss have zero authority to do anything other than pass it up the chain of command, and they might not even do that. So, I would be nice to them (but firm), and follow up every 24-48 hours to ask for their response or what they did with the last email (if no response back).
I would not give anyone more than 3 days to respond before sending another email. Of course, print out all emails and responses, and keep copies (take pics if needed).
Time is of the essence, at this point. Allowing them to drag it out is what they likely want.
Start nice, but if no substantive response comes quickly, ramp it up on the next email. If 2 emails go by with no real response, then I would unload the whole shebang and send copies up the chain of command, and especially the Board of Directors. Those guys are the ones really calling the shots, and likely taking orders or advise from others who are the real culprits in all of this.
Key points --
Good luck!
I will keep this thread bookmarked and am open to more discussion over time.
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Correct. My layman's thoughts --
What makes me subject to this requirement? I have not signed any agreement that would make me subject to such a requirement, and I have not agreed to any such requirement. On what basis do you make this claim?
(A general principle in American law is "silence is acquiescence" which means if you do not object to something that someone claims, then you are agreeing with the claim. Here, they have made an ASSUMPTION about what YOU are required to do, so it is important to REFUTE that assumption, so that you are not unwittingly agreeing to their assumption. You can refute it in a nice way or a not so nice way, but refute you must.)
This appears to be a change in my employment contract with you, which renders the contract a unilateral contract of adhesion. Such contracts are to be interpreted in favor of the party who did not write the contract (that would be me), and specific performance (such as firing) is not available as a legal remedy for such contracts.
(Might be a good idea to cc the email to HR to include CEO, Legal Department, and Chairman of the Board -- of course, that is a big chess move, but if you think it is going in a particular direction anyway, might be the thing to do.)
I do not understand what you mean by "fully vaccinated." Please clarify what that means. Is there a particular vaccine you recommend or require? Against what illness? Do you have any evidence that I have an illness that would be some sort of health problem? Also, why do you want me to do this? What benefit do you expect will result in me doing this, either to the company or to me?
(Here, there is no challenge to what they are saying. That comes after they play their next card. First, clarify what THEY mean by "fully vaccinated." What if you went out and got a flu vaccine? What that be good enough? Of course, they are likely to come back and say Covid vaccine. In that case, the next move is to ask which one(s). They might list, or not. They might say FDA-approved or not. If they list, they are offering medical advice, and you could ask to see their medical license, or just use that info against them later, if needed. If they say FDA- approved, you could show them the Comirnaty approval, and state that all other Covid vaccines are not approved, but are for emergency use testing only. In order to be a guinea pig for testing unknown drugs, you must be fully informed of ALL adverse events.)
If you want me to be subjected to an experimental drug, you will need to follow the law, which requires you to FULLY inform me about the drug. So far, you have not provided me with any information about the drug, or even which drug you want me to experiment with. I will also need to see any scientific evidence that this drug is both safe and effective, and your legal authority to make such demand.
I have heard of numerous significant complications with certain experimental drugs, including death. So, I will need to be fully informed by you.
I refer you to federal law on this issue --
See: 21 USC 360bbb-3(e)(1)(A)(ii) and (iii):
(ii) Appropriate conditions designed to ensure that individuals to whom the product is administered are informed — (II) of the significant known and potential benefits and risks of such use, and of the extent to which such benefits and risks are unknown; and (III) of the option to accept or refuse administration of the product, of the consequences, if any, of refusing administration of the product, and of the alternatives to the product that are available and of their benefits and risks.
[NOTE: There is weasel language in that statute, but it is worth pushing to the legal department, CEO, and Chairman so they know that you know, and will make them wonder if they have a lawsuit coming their way, but without you threatening anything.]
(I would also want them to give me a REASON WHY they think taking this drug will have some sort of benefit to someone -- company, me, other employees, etc. Without that, they really have no grounds at all. Of course, whatever reason they come up with will be based on fraud. If they refuse to give a reason, then they are demanding a medical treatment without providing a reason, which even doctors cannot do. If they give a reason about "protection" or "health benefit" or similar, then I would come back with this paper from the NIH, which shows there is NO correlation between vaccination rates and Covid cases [and there never will be, unless they rig the numbers, because it is all fraud]:)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/
(Provide that paper to them, and then ask: On what basis do you claim there is any benefit, when the NIH says there is none?)
[To be continued ...]
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I've thought of a couple of things on this issue.
First, you could have someone you know become an ordained minister, and then write you a letter on your behalf. This can be done quickly and cheaply by anyone (18 or older) and online at the Universal Life Church:
https://www.ulc.org/
Second, I might tell them that it is against my religious belief to bear false witness, and to participate in anything that bears false witness. This is basic Bible 101, 10 Commandments. They can't argue that it is not a valid religious belief. Congress has recognized the Bible as an important foundation upon which the laws of the United States of America are derived:
https://www.nationallibertyalliance.org/sites/default/files/public_law_97-280_oct._4_1982_0.pdf
By using "false witness," you are necessarily bringing into the discussion that what they are doing is fraud. It is ALL based on lies. So, you are not just using a religious reason, but also forcing the issue of fraud into it.
One thing to keep in mind (or at least, this would be my position) is that if the company is acting due to government regulation, then the company is acting as an agent of government. (This is a legal issue that they would challenge, and would have to be decided in court, possibly taken up on appeal.)
At the very least, it is likely to get them to think long and hard about whether they have PERSONAL liability -- the CEO, all executives involved in this decision, legal department individuals, and members of the Board of Directors.
They likely think they have immunity from personal lawsuit or criminal charges. Make them question that assumption, but WITHOUT making those claims.
I would not do this in a first email. I would also not ONLY give it to my boss or HR. Those people are insignificant, and will not have the resources to investigate and find out what is what. I would send it to those people, but ALSO copy it to the higher ups, including legal department individuals (claim they are acting in their individual capacities, and not as attorneys for the company). Such as --
It is my understanding [Note: not saying it is law, just my personal understanding, right or wrong] that the company is acting on behalf of a government entity. As such, the company is an agent of government, and is therefore subject to all limitations imposed on government.
The law is quite clear on this issue. The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission puts the burden of proof on YOU, not on me:
"Because the definition of religion is broad and protects beliefs, observances, and practices with which the employer may be unfamiliar, the employer should ordinarily assume that an employee’s request for religious accommodation is based on a sincerely held religious belief. If, however, an employee requests religious accommodation, and an employer has an objective basis for questioning either the religious nature or the sincerity of a particular belief, observance, or practice, the employer would be justified in seeking additional supporting information."
https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/section-12-religious-discrimination#h_984461328691610748665504
I would like to make it clear that I deny that the commission has ANY authority to issue edicts regarding religion, for reasons stated below. However, I am pointing out that even they state that the burden of proof is on YOU, not me. You cannot question my religious beliefs unless you have an objective basis that is specific to me. If you do attempt to question my beliefs, I will need proof of your objective basis, which I do not believe you could possibly have.
Furthermore, you are violating my First Amendment rights, secured by the Constitution. The law of the land, as decided by the United States Supreme Court, is clear on this issue:
"Religious speech is at the apex of protected speech under the First Amendment." Lovell v. City of Griffin, 303 U.S. 444 (1938)
“Man’s relation to his God was made no concern of the state. He was granted the right to worship as he pleased and to answer to no man for the verity of his religious views. The religious reviews espoused by [the sect that followed the religious leader] might seem incredible, if not preposterous, to most people. But if those doctrines are subject to trial before a jury charged with finding their truth or falsity, then the same can be done with the religious beliefs of any sect. When the triers of fact undertake that task, they enter a forbidden domain.” United States v. Ballard, 322 U.S. 78 (1944)
What the United States Supreme Court is saying is that you have NO AUTHORITY to question my religious beliefs, regardless of what any government commission or agency might say to the contrary. No authority means NO AUTHORITY. Doing so is a clear violation of my First Amendment Rights.
Violating my constitutional rights is a felony, for ALL individuals involved in such activity, including officers, directors, and attorneys for corporations.
“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule-making or legislation, which would abrogate them”
Miranda v. Arizona 384 US 436 (1966)
"There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of Constitutional Rights." Schware v. Board of Examiners 353 U.S. 238.
Under federal law, 18 USC 241 and 18 USC 242, it is a FELONY to deprive, or to conspire with others to deprive, any individual of their constitutional rights.
"Color of law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within their lawful authority, but also acts done beyond the bounds of that official's lawful authority, if the acts are done while the official is purporting to or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties.
Persons acting under color of law within the meaning of this statute include police officers, prisons guards and other law enforcement officials, as well as judges, care providers in public health facilities, and others who are acting as public officials. It is not necessary that the crime be motivated by animus toward the race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status or national origin of the victim.
The offense is punishable by a range of imprisonment up to a life term, or the death penalty, depending upon the circumstances of the crime, and the resulting injury.
“When a state officer acts under a state law in a manner violative of the Federal Constitution, he comes into conflict with the superior authority of that Constitution, and he is in that case stripped of his official or representative character and is subjected in his person to the consequences of his individual conduct. The state has no power to impart to him any immunity from responsibility to the supreme authority of the United States” Scheuer v. Rhodes 416 US 232 (1974)
"Loss of First Amendment Freedoms, for even minimal periods of time, unquestionably constitutes irreparable injury."
Elrod v. Burns, 427 U.S. 347 (1976)
"There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one, because of his exercise of constitutional rights."
Miller v. U.S., 230 F. 2d. 486 (5th Cir., 1956)
" ... the assertion of federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practice."
Davis v. Wechsler, 263 US 22 (1923)
("Local practice" would include company policies, though the court here was talking about state laws. This is why you want to ASSERT your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, namely the First Amendment rights of religion and free speech. This assertion preserves them, according to the courts -- or at least, that is how it is supposed to work.)
Anyone who deprives another person of his constitutional rights is subject to personal liability in a civil lawsuit. The limited liability protection of a state corporation does not protect anyone against personal liability for violations of constitutional rights secured under federal and fundamental law.
Please provide me with the government requirement(s) to which you refer here. I am not aware of any government requirement that is applicable to this company, and especially to me.
(Make them show you what they are relying on. Most likely, you will be able to take it apart the way I did the OSHA thing, and it will not actually apply to this company. That is how MOST "unconstitutional" law is done. They make it seem like it applies to everyone, but it really does not. You have to dig through it, though, and most attorneys won't because they get paid by the People being ignorant.)
Regarding the "policies implemented by more than 150 of our customers in the U.S." please provide me with those policies. If you are basing your policy on the policy of another company that does not have any authority to issue such policies, then no authority exists for you or them.
No policy, whether by a private company or by any government agency, is enforceable if it violates law.
[To be continued]