Aha. I agree, although this is the very problem, because there are scriptural foundations both for asserting 'predestination' and also for refuting it. So how do we resolve this? Accepting only those scriptures that support our view and discarding those that do not is only a short-term stop gap solution, and is one reason why we have so many fractures within the Christian world.
For example, Rom 8:30
And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Paul directly references "predestination". Here. Also, Rom 9:15
For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
But at this point, we should also take to heart Paul's words: "For now we see dimly as in a mirror..." where he acknowledges himself that his understanding is limited.
In contradiction to the idea of absolute predestination, we have Matt 7:7
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you.
Clearing indicating that some effort is required on the part of the person.
Also, in Genesis, God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. They disregarded God's warning, ate the fruit and fell. But in Gen 6:6
And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
It makes no sense that Adam and Eve were predestined to fall, because if God had predestined them to fall, He would have no reason to grieve, because they would have been doing what he predestined them to do.
So, how can we possibly resolve this apparent contradiction, between God's predestination on one had, but the clear evidence of human agency aka free will on the other?
What if the key to this is to understand that God's purpose of creation is in fact a joint project between God and his children? That is, what if the absolute creator established a purpose of creation that requires human beings to play a specific role and part?
What if God's purpose of creation is to create an ideal world aka the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, but made it necessary for human beings to contribute to that and fulfill a specific necessary responsibility? That would make sense, because the core element of such a kingdom (aka ideal world) would be true love, and true love can never be coerced, but must be given freely with free will.
Also, if God made everything and predestined everything and did it all, and we had no choice or responsibility, would we truly be his children? If God is a creator, we must also be creators, and so His purpose would need to include that factor.
So what if God, as the parent, fulfills 99% of the work by creating the universe, establishing the laws of the cosmos (spiritual and material), but then assigns to his children a portion of responsibility aka (symbolically) 1% of the work? What if the responsibility assigned by God to his children was their own perfection and completion?
In other words, what if, like every other living thing in the creation, human beings were created to grow to completion aka maturity, but, unlike everything else in the universe, human beings growing to maturity was contingent on them fulfilling their own responsibility? It would make sense if such a responsibility was to have faith.
Something like this: human beings are born/created like a seed, with body spirit and flesh, and the flesh, like all other beings, grows automatically to completion, but the spirit, which is the seat of the capacity to think, feel, give and receive love, only grows to maturity by choosing to act in accordance with God's principles?
This would explain why God gave Adam and Eve the commandment "Do not eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil". They would have been required, during the period of this immaturity, when they were vulnerable to being mislead and making a fatal mistake, to believe with absolute faith the word that God gave him.
The serpent Archangel deceived Eve (told her it was good to eat the fruit) and she believed him instead, and fell. She then tempted Adam, and he fell. But if they had believed in that commandment unwaveringly, then they would have continued to grow in heart and mind and capacity to love, and then reached perfection and completion, at which point, they would be irreversibly united with God, because God also is a perfect and complete being of love.
What does all this mean for the idea of predestination?
If God predestined Adam and Eve to grow to spiritual maturity, but for that predestination to be fulfilled they were both required to maintain their faith until they reached maturity, then when they did reach that perfect maturity, it would have been a combination of God's predestination + human free will aka responsibility.
The fact that Adam and Eve fell implies that someone else would have fulfill that predestination instead in their place. This could be the very reason why Jesus is referred to by Paul as the 2nd Adam. Jesus fulfilled where Adam had failed. Thus, Adam's failure destined his descendants to death (sinful separation from God), but Jesus' victory opened the door back up to those descendents to be "reborn" in a new lineage that was founded on the one who first fulfilled the human portion of responsibility to grow to perfection.
If God predestines his Will as absolute, but that Will includes the fulfillment of some responsibility by human beings, then when they fail, predestination would be delayed and postponed, and would require that the fulfillment is achieved by someone else at a later time.
Based on this thinking a formula can be hypothesized:
God's Responsibility + Human Responsibility = Fulfillment of God's Will
Plus:
if that Human Responsibility is not fulfilled by the predestined person or people, another person or people must later emerge who restores the failure and fulfills that responsibility.
In other words,
*the Will (purpose) itself IS absolute, but HOW it is fulfilled, this is NOT absolute
Also,
Human responsibility = human free will. There is no free will without responsibility.
Together, these formulas would explain why the history of salvation is so long. If it was ALL up to God, then why would he not fix everything immediately? The only reasonable answer is that it is NOT all up to God, but that human agency is also required.
This concept could explain why God prepared the Israelites for 2000 years. He predestined the Israelites to receive the Messiah and fulfill the mission of the chosen people, thus being uplifted and glorified, with Jesus becoming the Lord of Glory on the Throne of David. But when they failed their responsibility to unite with Jesus, they failed that responsibility, and the mission had to be passed to Christians. This explains the parable of the Vineyard in Mark 12:
So they seized the son, killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard. What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants, and will give the vineyard to others.
It also explains why Isaiah made differing prophecies regarding Jesus aka King of Glory or King of Suffering. Theologians have addressed the dual nature of the prophecies by asserting that the first Coming was predestined to be the King of Suffering, and the King of Glory prophecy refers to the Second Coming. But that contradicts Jesus own words:
"For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John." (Matt 11:13)
From this angle, all the prophecies in Isaiah, for example, would actually refer to the time of the advent of the Messiah 2000 years ago, but because of the factor of human responsibility, there are two possibilities.
So, using the formula mentioned above, we could conceive that God gives dual prophecies: one for what would happen if the people (Israelites) fulfill their responsibility to be faithful to God, and the other for what would happen if they failed their responsibility to be faithful to God.
Jesus never said "It is the will of God that you reject me and murder me". He said "This is the will of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent".
From this perspective, it is only when it became apparent that the Israelites and their leaders were failing in their responsibility to believe, it was only then that path of the cross, aka to become the Lord of Suffering, became a necessity, also thus requiring that a second coming would be necessary.
In my view, without understanding the idea that God's absolute will involves human beings fulfilling their own portion of responsibility, which revolves around acting in accordance with faith, then there is no way to resolve the apparent contradictions between the scriptures that imply predestination is real and the scriptures that indicate that human effort and agency - free will - is real.
God predestines his Will absolutely, but he does not 100% predestine a particular person or people to fulfill that will. Rather, the person has a responsibility to fulfill action through faith, and if they fail in that responsibility, the result is evil, which grieves God's heart, and thus creates a necessity for a restoration of the failure to take place. Ultimately, then, the providence of salvation is a providence of restoration.
This is really long, obviously, but if you read this far, thanks! It's a very complex issue in fact, but I hope this provides an example of the sort of issues that have been grappled with for thousands of years and which unfortunately led to division and conflict within Christianity thus opening up the vulnerability to Marxist lies and ideological infiltration.
You have made some very excellent points, fren! There is much food for thought here. Thank you for taking the time to craft such an insightful explanation.
Aha. I agree, although this is the very problem, because there are scriptural foundations both for asserting 'predestination' and also for refuting it. So how do we resolve this? Accepting only those scriptures that support our view and discarding those that do not is only a short-term stop gap solution, and is one reason why we have so many fractures within the Christian world.
For example, Rom 8:30
Paul directly references "predestination". Here. Also, Rom 9:15
But at this point, we should also take to heart Paul's words: "For now we see dimly as in a mirror..." where he acknowledges himself that his understanding is limited.
In contradiction to the idea of absolute predestination, we have Matt 7:7
Clearing indicating that some effort is required on the part of the person.
Also, in Genesis, God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. They disregarded God's warning, ate the fruit and fell. But in Gen 6:6
It makes no sense that Adam and Eve were predestined to fall, because if God had predestined them to fall, He would have no reason to grieve, because they would have been doing what he predestined them to do.
So, how can we possibly resolve this apparent contradiction, between God's predestination on one had, but the clear evidence of human agency aka free will on the other?
What if the key to this is to understand that God's purpose of creation is in fact a joint project between God and his children? That is, what if the absolute creator established a purpose of creation that requires human beings to play a specific role and part?
What if God's purpose of creation is to create an ideal world aka the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, but made it necessary for human beings to contribute to that and fulfill a specific necessary responsibility? That would make sense, because the core element of such a kingdom (aka ideal world) would be true love, and true love can never be coerced, but must be given freely with free will.
Also, if God made everything and predestined everything and did it all, and we had no choice or responsibility, would we truly be his children? If God is a creator, we must also be creators, and so His purpose would need to include that factor.
So what if God, as the parent, fulfills 99% of the work by creating the universe, establishing the laws of the cosmos (spiritual and material), but then assigns to his children a portion of responsibility aka (symbolically) 1% of the work? What if the responsibility assigned by God to his children was their own perfection and completion?
In other words, what if, like every other living thing in the creation, human beings were created to grow to completion aka maturity, but, unlike everything else in the universe, human beings growing to maturity was contingent on them fulfilling their own responsibility? It would make sense if such a responsibility was to have faith.
Something like this: human beings are born/created like a seed, with body spirit and flesh, and the flesh, like all other beings, grows automatically to completion, but the spirit, which is the seat of the capacity to think, feel, give and receive love, only grows to maturity by choosing to act in accordance with God's principles?
This would explain why God gave Adam and Eve the commandment "Do not eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil". They would have been required, during the period of this immaturity, when they were vulnerable to being mislead and making a fatal mistake, to believe with absolute faith the word that God gave him.
The serpent Archangel deceived Eve (told her it was good to eat the fruit) and she believed him instead, and fell. She then tempted Adam, and he fell. But if they had believed in that commandment unwaveringly, then they would have continued to grow in heart and mind and capacity to love, and then reached perfection and completion, at which point, they would be irreversibly united with God, because God also is a perfect and complete being of love.
What does all this mean for the idea of predestination?
If God predestined Adam and Eve to grow to spiritual maturity, but for that predestination to be fulfilled they were both required to maintain their faith until they reached maturity, then when they did reach that perfect maturity, it would have been a combination of God's predestination + human free will aka responsibility.
The fact that Adam and Eve fell implies that someone else would have fulfill that predestination instead in their place. This could be the very reason why Jesus is referred to by Paul as the 2nd Adam. Jesus fulfilled where Adam had failed. Thus, Adam's failure destined his descendants to death (sinful separation from God), but Jesus' victory opened the door back up to those descendents to be "reborn" in a new lineage that was founded on the one who first fulfilled the human portion of responsibility to grow to perfection.
If God predestines his Will as absolute, but that Will includes the fulfillment of some responsibility by human beings, then when they fail, predestination would be delayed and postponed, and would require that the fulfillment is achieved by someone else at a later time.
Based on this thinking a formula can be hypothesized:
God's Responsibility + Human Responsibility = Fulfillment of God's Will
Plus:
if that Human Responsibility is not fulfilled by the predestined person or people, another person or people must later emerge who restores the failure and fulfills that responsibility.
In other words,
*the Will (purpose) itself IS absolute, but HOW it is fulfilled, this is NOT absolute
Also,
Human responsibility = human free will. There is no free will without responsibility.
Together, these formulas would explain why the history of salvation is so long. If it was ALL up to God, then why would he not fix everything immediately? The only reasonable answer is that it is NOT all up to God, but that human agency is also required.
This concept could explain why God prepared the Israelites for 2000 years. He predestined the Israelites to receive the Messiah and fulfill the mission of the chosen people, thus being uplifted and glorified, with Jesus becoming the Lord of Glory on the Throne of David. But when they failed their responsibility to unite with Jesus, they failed that responsibility, and the mission had to be passed to Christians. This explains the parable of the Vineyard in Mark 12:
It also explains why Isaiah made differing prophecies regarding Jesus aka King of Glory or King of Suffering. Theologians have addressed the dual nature of the prophecies by asserting that the first Coming was predestined to be the King of Suffering, and the King of Glory prophecy refers to the Second Coming. But that contradicts Jesus own words:
From this angle, all the prophecies in Isaiah, for example, would actually refer to the time of the advent of the Messiah 2000 years ago, but because of the factor of human responsibility, there are two possibilities.
So, using the formula mentioned above, we could conceive that God gives dual prophecies: one for what would happen if the people (Israelites) fulfill their responsibility to be faithful to God, and the other for what would happen if they failed their responsibility to be faithful to God.
Jesus never said "It is the will of God that you reject me and murder me". He said "This is the will of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent".
From this perspective, it is only when it became apparent that the Israelites and their leaders were failing in their responsibility to believe, it was only then that path of the cross, aka to become the Lord of Suffering, became a necessity, also thus requiring that a second coming would be necessary.
In my view, without understanding the idea that God's absolute will involves human beings fulfilling their own portion of responsibility, which revolves around acting in accordance with faith, then there is no way to resolve the apparent contradictions between the scriptures that imply predestination is real and the scriptures that indicate that human effort and agency - free will - is real.
God predestines his Will absolutely, but he does not 100% predestine a particular person or people to fulfill that will. Rather, the person has a responsibility to fulfill action through faith, and if they fail in that responsibility, the result is evil, which grieves God's heart, and thus creates a necessity for a restoration of the failure to take place. Ultimately, then, the providence of salvation is a providence of restoration.
This is really long, obviously, but if you read this far, thanks! It's a very complex issue in fact, but I hope this provides an example of the sort of issues that have been grappled with for thousands of years and which unfortunately led to division and conflict within Christianity thus opening up the vulnerability to Marxist lies and ideological infiltration.
You have made some very excellent points, fren! There is much food for thought here. Thank you for taking the time to craft such an insightful explanation.