So what happens with a search warrant when the police plant evidence? The warrant simply becomes a cover story. Remember we are talking about the FBI, with a proven record of constructing falsifications about Trump (FISA warrant). The actual warrant in this case was overly broad; it was a warrant for a fishing expedition, not specifying what was to be sought or where to look for it. The lack of any discussion of custody receipts strikes to the very assertion that "classified" materials were in custody.
A proper inventory of material goods, for example, would include brand identification, model number (or name), and serial number (if available). The corresponding identification of classified material would be the document number (standard) and any unclassified title. Possibly the name of the classification authority. You are entirely trusting the FBI to be honest and complete, which I have to regard as being hopelessly naive and credulous. If there is no inventory of identified items, how is it possible to say that any of them were improperly in custody? Suppose you were looking for stolen goods? How would you know any of them were stolen unless you could compare them to a list of serial numbers of known stolen goods? All you are justifying is going through the motions of a search without particular awareness of what a search means for CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS.
This is not a "proper receipt." This is a laundry list prepared by someone who is basically illiterate, describing what they handled, but not touching on any other information pertinent to document identification. And how is anyone going to be able to verify this supposed list, when Trump's representatives were not allowed the opportunity to observe and record for themselves? (Surveillance cameras are nice, but they are wholly inadequate to the identification of documents.)
The Constitution has specific requirements for searches and seizures, regarding identification of what is to be seized and where is to be searched.
Was box 2A taken from Trump's location, or was it brought by the FBI for collection of materials? How are we to know that any of the materials displayed in the photograph were found at Trump's location? Since they were boilerplate cover sheets, how are we to know they were associated with any actual "classified" documents? The ruler is almost superfluous, since the standard page size in America is 8 1/2 x 11 inches.
Indeed---have Trump's lawyers complained about this? Only they would know. And who would report any complaint they might make to the press? We have such a neutral press, right?
You are not only swallowing the government story hook, line, and sinker, you are dreaming up exculpatory rationale. And it is clear that you are not at all familiar with the standard procedures relating to the handling and custody of actual classified material---which would preclude treating is as junk evidence to be thrown in boxes, mixing together potentially differing classification levels and guides. If this was truly classified material, the FBI failed to treat it as such. And if it was not classified material, the FBI has performed a hoax.
You seem to think the surveillance footage would reveal any subterfuge the FBI conducted. I don't know why you would think that, since some of these subterfuges would be undetectable by camera. And as good as cameras can be, they are not perfect and they are not eagle's eyes. Don't put the cameras in the position of being God's Own. Their failure to prove a subterfuge does not reduce the possibility of there being a subterfuge.
I assume you mean the receipt....the list of stuff they found
Remember we are talking about the FBI, with a proven record of constructing falsifications about Trump (FISA warrant).
The FISA warrants were against Carter Page, not Trump. And Page did knowingly talk to Russia spies.
The actual warrant in this case was overly broad; it was a warrant for a fishing expedition, not specifying what was to be sought or where to look for it.
It seems to me they did specify where to look.
Also a lot of the probable cause info is still redacted, so we can't know specifics yet. One piece the judge made the DOJ reveal is they had surveillance footage of Walt Natua moving boxe. They saw him move ~60 boxes and put back~30
Was box 2A taken from Trump's location, or was it brought by the FBI for collection of materials? How are we to know that any of the materials displayed in the photograph were found at Trump's location? Since they were boilerplate cover sheets, how are we to know they were associated with any actual "classified" documents? The ruler is almost superfluous
The evidence scale is standard. It's just standard procedure. The reporting is that item 2 was a leather bound box found in Trump's 45 office. Item 2A is the contents of that box. The photographs that we have seen are only a small portion of all the photographs. They would have taken documenting the search. We only got to see the 2A cuz they were included in a court filing where the DOJ told the judge they found 100+ classified documents. This is the description of that photo
Certain of the documents had colored cover sheets indicating their classification
status. See, e.g., Attachment F (redacted FBI photograph of certain documents and classified cover sheets recovered from a container in the “45 office”)
Indeed---have Trump's lawyers complained about this? Only they would know.
It would be in court fillings which are public. As far as I know Trump has not said the documents were not there. Trump said the documents were there but they were declassified and thus note crime had been committed.
You are not reading closely. When I refer to the warrant, I am referring to the warrant, which was permission to go on a fishing expedition. I read it. You apparently did not. This is not the role of a warrant, per the Constitution ("particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"---"particularly," not "generally"). The list of "stuff they found" was nowhere specific---it was like saying they found some firearms, but did not provide make, model, or serial numbers.
You are going all-in for the Establishment by claiming the FBI did not use the falsified information to pursue FISA warrants for the purpose of conducting investigation of Trump & Co. I am surprised you are not being called out by the usual shill-intolerant people.
The photos do not verify their description. You can't tell that any classified documents are present from that photo. Unless you ASSUME that what is alleged is ipso facto true. No, allegations need to be established in court.
And if they were declassified, that would be consistent with HOW THEY WERE TREATED BY THE FBI. You simply don't understand how to handle classified documents. Nothing concerning them is "standard procedure." It is always a special procedure. I speak from experience.
You are not reading close.............. I am referring to the warrant, which was permission to go on a fishing expedition. I read it. You apparently did not. .....,... The list of "stuff they found" was nowhere specific---it was like saying they found some firearms, but did not provide make, model, or serial numbers
Again, I think you looking at things that are standard procedure and saying they are out of line
The warrant was not overly broad.....if it was .....I haven't heard Trump's lawyers challenge it. Why Not? Because so far it seems standard. You keep talking about the property receipt which I know of no Constitutional requirement to be highly specific there.
This is not the only form of identification of the evidence. It will all get catalogued later. Each document will be given an individual BATES number, which is how it will get tracked through discovery.
investigation of Trump & Co
I see what you did there.
Again this was not Trump. It was Carter Page. After he quit the Trump Campaign. And remember why Page was suspicious?
He continued to associate with Evgeny Buryakov even after being told by the FBI that Buryakov was a spy trying to recruit him. This is the FBI got a FISA warrant on him in 2014 well before he was ever associated with Trump. Ant the first two warrants stood. Which is why Page has lost every lawsuit he's tried.
I dunno know about you but I think a guy with ties to Russian spies who then gets close to the Republican candidate for President should legitimately be looked at.
Page easily could have been working his own agenda against Trump.
The photos do not verify their description
The photo shows
documents with top secret cover sheets
AND
NO indication they have been declassified.
Unless you ASSUME that what is alleged is ipso facto true. No, allegations need to be established in court>
This issue has already been before multiple courts. It would have been presented to the grand jury. Remember when the documents were being reviewed by "a special master" to see what documents the DOJ could retain?
The guy Trump wanted as special master told Trump's lawyers the documents are marked classified, unless you show me evidence they were declassified, I will treat them just how they are marked. Trump's lawyers didn't present any evidence. This was back in September before the indictment. Had they presented evidence these documents were not classified it could have prevented the indictment.
And if they were declassified, that would be consistent with HOW THEY WERE TREATED BY THE FBI.
The DOJ told the judge in that same case, some of the prosecutors cannot view the documents because they don't have clearance.
Trump's and Nauta's lawyers are going to have to get security clearance. The judge ordered this
It seems like people are in fact, treating these as classified documents
It is difficult to converse with you because you are not following the gist of the conversation. Let me put it plainly: According to law (appropriate statutes), classified material must be handled in a particular way. This is additional to any constitutional requirements (which, in any case, were not met).
Again, I read the warrant. It basically amounted to "go there and grab anything you think could be classified material." Not PARTICULAR at all. No specificity as to where in the dwelling or the identity of the things sought.
Questions are not arguments, and certainly are not refutations of the points I am bringing forth. Just because you don't know, doesn't mean that you know otherwise.
Page was an asset of the CIA. The FISA warrant was the toe in the door to look at whomever Page was associating with. The FISA warrant I am talking about was the one that alluded to the Steele Memorandum as source material, which was clearly about Trump.
The photos do not verify their description. "This is a photo of a Chevy." The photo has some automotive shape covered by a tarpaulin. Really? You are not looking at the photo. "This is a photo of a parrot." The photo is a cage covered by a cloth. Really? Cover sheets are mere paper and have no ultimately classified significance...especially when there are no document identifiers such as numbers or titles. Show me a cover sheet and I will show you how to light a fire with it. Declassification could be implemented by a Presidential memo for record, or even verbal instruction. There is no required procedure.
You rely on supposition about what Trump's lawyers may or may not be doing. That does not address the points I am making. If they are not experts in classified document control, they may be overlooking the points I am making.
Trump, as President, had the ultimate authority over classification. Nauta et al. could have legacy clearance from Trump. Meanwhile, the DoJ is NOT treating these materials as if they are truly classified, because they are violating all the standards of custody control. For them, "classified" means "Nyaa, nyaa. We are the ultimate authority, not the President." It seems to me that the FBI agents and DoJ personnel should have obtained security clearance IN ADVANCE OF THE RAID. How would this be possible if they had no idea if or what Trump had in the way of classified material? Not only is there a clearance necessary for classification level (e.g., CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, TOP SECRET, SCI) there is also the issue of "need to know." Just because you have a level clearance doesn't mean you have a need to know. I think it is safe to say that no FBI agents had either level clearances or need to know authorizations.
I have handled classified materials up to TOP SECRET and SCI, for 40 years. The requirements for custody and transfer are rigorous. You are evidently completely ignorant of this and not interested in learning. Meanwhile, you are defending the conspicuously corrupt DoJ as faithfully as a dog, speculating and supposing rationalizations on behalf of that selfsame DoJ.
So what happens with a search warrant when the police plant evidence? The warrant simply becomes a cover story. Remember we are talking about the FBI, with a proven record of constructing falsifications about Trump (FISA warrant). The actual warrant in this case was overly broad; it was a warrant for a fishing expedition, not specifying what was to be sought or where to look for it. The lack of any discussion of custody receipts strikes to the very assertion that "classified" materials were in custody.
A proper inventory of material goods, for example, would include brand identification, model number (or name), and serial number (if available). The corresponding identification of classified material would be the document number (standard) and any unclassified title. Possibly the name of the classification authority. You are entirely trusting the FBI to be honest and complete, which I have to regard as being hopelessly naive and credulous. If there is no inventory of identified items, how is it possible to say that any of them were improperly in custody? Suppose you were looking for stolen goods? How would you know any of them were stolen unless you could compare them to a list of serial numbers of known stolen goods? All you are justifying is going through the motions of a search without particular awareness of what a search means for CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS.
This is not a "proper receipt." This is a laundry list prepared by someone who is basically illiterate, describing what they handled, but not touching on any other information pertinent to document identification. And how is anyone going to be able to verify this supposed list, when Trump's representatives were not allowed the opportunity to observe and record for themselves? (Surveillance cameras are nice, but they are wholly inadequate to the identification of documents.)
The Constitution has specific requirements for searches and seizures, regarding identification of what is to be seized and where is to be searched.
Was box 2A taken from Trump's location, or was it brought by the FBI for collection of materials? How are we to know that any of the materials displayed in the photograph were found at Trump's location? Since they were boilerplate cover sheets, how are we to know they were associated with any actual "classified" documents? The ruler is almost superfluous, since the standard page size in America is 8 1/2 x 11 inches.
Indeed---have Trump's lawyers complained about this? Only they would know. And who would report any complaint they might make to the press? We have such a neutral press, right?
You are not only swallowing the government story hook, line, and sinker, you are dreaming up exculpatory rationale. And it is clear that you are not at all familiar with the standard procedures relating to the handling and custody of actual classified material---which would preclude treating is as junk evidence to be thrown in boxes, mixing together potentially differing classification levels and guides. If this was truly classified material, the FBI failed to treat it as such. And if it was not classified material, the FBI has performed a hoax.
You seem to think the surveillance footage would reveal any subterfuge the FBI conducted. I don't know why you would think that, since some of these subterfuges would be undetectable by camera. And as good as cameras can be, they are not perfect and they are not eagle's eyes. Don't put the cameras in the position of being God's Own. Their failure to prove a subterfuge does not reduce the possibility of there being a subterfuge.
I assume you mean the receipt....the list of stuff they found
The FISA warrants were against Carter Page, not Trump. And Page did knowingly talk to Russia spies.
It seems to me they did specify where to look. Also a lot of the probable cause info is still redacted, so we can't know specifics yet. One piece the judge made the DOJ reveal is they had surveillance footage of Walt Natua moving boxe. They saw him move ~60 boxes and put back~30
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22267182-trump-search-warrant-affidavit
The evidence scale is standard. It's just standard procedure. The reporting is that item 2 was a leather bound box found in Trump's 45 office. Item 2A is the contents of that box. The photographs that we have seen are only a small portion of all the photographs. They would have taken documenting the search. We only got to see the 2A cuz they were included in a court filing where the DOJ told the judge they found 100+ classified documents. This is the description of that photo
It would be in court fillings which are public. As far as I know Trump has not said the documents were not there. Trump said the documents were there but they were declassified and thus note crime had been committed.
You are not reading closely. When I refer to the warrant, I am referring to the warrant, which was permission to go on a fishing expedition. I read it. You apparently did not. This is not the role of a warrant, per the Constitution ("particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"---"particularly," not "generally"). The list of "stuff they found" was nowhere specific---it was like saying they found some firearms, but did not provide make, model, or serial numbers.
You are going all-in for the Establishment by claiming the FBI did not use the falsified information to pursue FISA warrants for the purpose of conducting investigation of Trump & Co. I am surprised you are not being called out by the usual shill-intolerant people.
The photos do not verify their description. You can't tell that any classified documents are present from that photo. Unless you ASSUME that what is alleged is ipso facto true. No, allegations need to be established in court.
And if they were declassified, that would be consistent with HOW THEY WERE TREATED BY THE FBI. You simply don't understand how to handle classified documents. Nothing concerning them is "standard procedure." It is always a special procedure. I speak from experience.
Again, I think you looking at things that are standard procedure and saying they are out of line
The warrant was not overly broad.....if it was .....I haven't heard Trump's lawyers challenge it. Why Not? Because so far it seems standard. You keep talking about the property receipt which I know of no Constitutional requirement to be highly specific there.
This is not the only form of identification of the evidence. It will all get catalogued later. Each document will be given an individual BATES number, which is how it will get tracked through discovery.
Again this was not Trump. It was Carter Page. After he quit the Trump Campaign. And remember why Page was suspicious? He continued to associate with Evgeny Buryakov even after being told by the FBI that Buryakov was a spy trying to recruit him. This is the FBI got a FISA warrant on him in 2014 well before he was ever associated with Trump. Ant the first two warrants stood. Which is why Page has lost every lawsuit he's tried.
I dunno know about you but I think a guy with ties to Russian spies who then gets close to the Republican candidate for President should legitimately be looked at.
Page easily could have been working his own agenda against Trump.
The photo shows documents with top secret cover sheets AND
NO indication they have been declassified.
This issue has already been before multiple courts. It would have been presented to the grand jury. Remember when the documents were being reviewed by "a special master" to see what documents the DOJ could retain?
The guy Trump wanted as special master told Trump's lawyers the documents are marked classified, unless you show me evidence they were declassified, I will treat them just how they are marked. Trump's lawyers didn't present any evidence. This was back in September before the indictment. Had they presented evidence these documents were not classified it could have prevented the indictment.
The DOJ told the judge in that same case, some of the prosecutors cannot view the documents because they don't have clearance.
Trump's and Nauta's lawyers are going to have to get security clearance. The judge ordered this
It seems like people are in fact, treating these as classified documents
It is difficult to converse with you because you are not following the gist of the conversation. Let me put it plainly: According to law (appropriate statutes), classified material must be handled in a particular way. This is additional to any constitutional requirements (which, in any case, were not met).
Again, I read the warrant. It basically amounted to "go there and grab anything you think could be classified material." Not PARTICULAR at all. No specificity as to where in the dwelling or the identity of the things sought.
Questions are not arguments, and certainly are not refutations of the points I am bringing forth. Just because you don't know, doesn't mean that you know otherwise.
Page was an asset of the CIA. The FISA warrant was the toe in the door to look at whomever Page was associating with. The FISA warrant I am talking about was the one that alluded to the Steele Memorandum as source material, which was clearly about Trump.
The photos do not verify their description. "This is a photo of a Chevy." The photo has some automotive shape covered by a tarpaulin. Really? You are not looking at the photo. "This is a photo of a parrot." The photo is a cage covered by a cloth. Really? Cover sheets are mere paper and have no ultimately classified significance...especially when there are no document identifiers such as numbers or titles. Show me a cover sheet and I will show you how to light a fire with it. Declassification could be implemented by a Presidential memo for record, or even verbal instruction. There is no required procedure.
You rely on supposition about what Trump's lawyers may or may not be doing. That does not address the points I am making. If they are not experts in classified document control, they may be overlooking the points I am making.
Trump, as President, had the ultimate authority over classification. Nauta et al. could have legacy clearance from Trump. Meanwhile, the DoJ is NOT treating these materials as if they are truly classified, because they are violating all the standards of custody control. For them, "classified" means "Nyaa, nyaa. We are the ultimate authority, not the President." It seems to me that the FBI agents and DoJ personnel should have obtained security clearance IN ADVANCE OF THE RAID. How would this be possible if they had no idea if or what Trump had in the way of classified material? Not only is there a clearance necessary for classification level (e.g., CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, TOP SECRET, SCI) there is also the issue of "need to know." Just because you have a level clearance doesn't mean you have a need to know. I think it is safe to say that no FBI agents had either level clearances or need to know authorizations.
I have handled classified materials up to TOP SECRET and SCI, for 40 years. The requirements for custody and transfer are rigorous. You are evidently completely ignorant of this and not interested in learning. Meanwhile, you are defending the conspicuously corrupt DoJ as faithfully as a dog, speculating and supposing rationalizations on behalf of that selfsame DoJ.
I welcome anyone to jump into this discussion.