You are not reading closely. When I refer to the warrant, I am referring to the warrant, which was permission to go on a fishing expedition. I read it. You apparently did not. This is not the role of a warrant, per the Constitution ("particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"---"particularly," not "generally"). The list of "stuff they found" was nowhere specific---it was like saying they found some firearms, but did not provide make, model, or serial numbers.
You are going all-in for the Establishment by claiming the FBI did not use the falsified information to pursue FISA warrants for the purpose of conducting investigation of Trump & Co. I am surprised you are not being called out by the usual shill-intolerant people.
The photos do not verify their description. You can't tell that any classified documents are present from that photo. Unless you ASSUME that what is alleged is ipso facto true. No, allegations need to be established in court.
And if they were declassified, that would be consistent with HOW THEY WERE TREATED BY THE FBI. You simply don't understand how to handle classified documents. Nothing concerning them is "standard procedure." It is always a special procedure. I speak from experience.
You are not reading close.............. I am referring to the warrant, which was permission to go on a fishing expedition. I read it. You apparently did not. .....,... The list of "stuff they found" was nowhere specific---it was like saying they found some firearms, but did not provide make, model, or serial numbers
Again, I think you looking at things that are standard procedure and saying they are out of line
The warrant was not overly broad.....if it was .....I haven't heard Trump's lawyers challenge it. Why Not? Because so far it seems standard. You keep talking about the property receipt which I know of no Constitutional requirement to be highly specific there.
This is not the only form of identification of the evidence. It will all get catalogued later. Each document will be given an individual BATES number, which is how it will get tracked through discovery.
investigation of Trump & Co
I see what you did there.
Again this was not Trump. It was Carter Page. After he quit the Trump Campaign. And remember why Page was suspicious?
He continued to associate with Evgeny Buryakov even after being told by the FBI that Buryakov was a spy trying to recruit him. This is the FBI got a FISA warrant on him in 2014 well before he was ever associated with Trump. Ant the first two warrants stood. Which is why Page has lost every lawsuit he's tried.
I dunno know about you but I think a guy with ties to Russian spies who then gets close to the Republican candidate for President should legitimately be looked at.
Page easily could have been working his own agenda against Trump.
The photos do not verify their description
The photo shows
documents with top secret cover sheets
AND
NO indication they have been declassified.
Unless you ASSUME that what is alleged is ipso facto true. No, allegations need to be established in court>
This issue has already been before multiple courts. It would have been presented to the grand jury. Remember when the documents were being reviewed by "a special master" to see what documents the DOJ could retain?
The guy Trump wanted as special master told Trump's lawyers the documents are marked classified, unless you show me evidence they were declassified, I will treat them just how they are marked. Trump's lawyers didn't present any evidence. This was back in September before the indictment. Had they presented evidence these documents were not classified it could have prevented the indictment.
And if they were declassified, that would be consistent with HOW THEY WERE TREATED BY THE FBI.
The DOJ told the judge in that same case, some of the prosecutors cannot view the documents because they don't have clearance.
Trump's and Nauta's lawyers are going to have to get security clearance. The judge ordered this
It seems like people are in fact, treating these as classified documents
It is difficult to converse with you because you are not following the gist of the conversation. Let me put it plainly: According to law (appropriate statutes), classified material must be handled in a particular way. This is additional to any constitutional requirements (which, in any case, were not met).
Again, I read the warrant. It basically amounted to "go there and grab anything you think could be classified material." Not PARTICULAR at all. No specificity as to where in the dwelling or the identity of the things sought.
Questions are not arguments, and certainly are not refutations of the points I am bringing forth. Just because you don't know, doesn't mean that you know otherwise.
Page was an asset of the CIA. The FISA warrant was the toe in the door to look at whomever Page was associating with. The FISA warrant I am talking about was the one that alluded to the Steele Memorandum as source material, which was clearly about Trump.
The photos do not verify their description. "This is a photo of a Chevy." The photo has some automotive shape covered by a tarpaulin. Really? You are not looking at the photo. "This is a photo of a parrot." The photo is a cage covered by a cloth. Really? Cover sheets are mere paper and have no ultimately classified significance...especially when there are no document identifiers such as numbers or titles. Show me a cover sheet and I will show you how to light a fire with it. Declassification could be implemented by a Presidential memo for record, or even verbal instruction. There is no required procedure.
You rely on supposition about what Trump's lawyers may or may not be doing. That does not address the points I am making. If they are not experts in classified document control, they may be overlooking the points I am making.
Trump, as President, had the ultimate authority over classification. Nauta et al. could have legacy clearance from Trump. Meanwhile, the DoJ is NOT treating these materials as if they are truly classified, because they are violating all the standards of custody control. For them, "classified" means "Nyaa, nyaa. We are the ultimate authority, not the President." It seems to me that the FBI agents and DoJ personnel should have obtained security clearance IN ADVANCE OF THE RAID. How would this be possible if they had no idea if or what Trump had in the way of classified material? Not only is there a clearance necessary for classification level (e.g., CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, TOP SECRET, SCI) there is also the issue of "need to know." Just because you have a level clearance doesn't mean you have a need to know. I think it is safe to say that no FBI agents had either level clearances or need to know authorizations.
I have handled classified materials up to TOP SECRET and SCI, for 40 years. The requirements for custody and transfer are rigorous. You are evidently completely ignorant of this and not interested in learning. Meanwhile, you are defending the conspicuously corrupt DoJ as faithfully as a dog, speculating and supposing rationalizations on behalf of that selfsame DoJ.
Again, I read the warrant. It basically amounted to "go there and grab anything you think could be classified material." Not PARTICULAR at all. No specificity as to where in the dwelling or the identity of the things sought.
"Classified material" is specific. You don't need anything else. All classified material would be subject to seizure even if no crime was committed because retrieval of classified info is valid. Page 18 of the warrant mentions that any and all classified material was subpoenaed and gives a list of like 25 code classifications.
The warrant mentions knowing two locations where the FPOTUS's White House boxes were stored. One is redacted and but it specifically mentions the storage room where the box were kept and describes it having a gold door and being up a short flight of stairs. It has photos of storage room with dozens of boxes in it. The DOJ visited this room before the search warrant was issued.
Furthermore, we just learned this week that Walt Nauta was seen on security footage moving boxes out of this storage room AFTER the FBI interviewed him about the boxes. This was also before Trump's lawyer enters the room to search for documents subject to the subpoena. Because of this the DOJ concludes Trump's lawyer could not have searched all the boxes, because Nauta moved them.
They also say they learned classified info was moved "FPOTUS's residential suite and PINE HALL." A lot is redacted after that.
Paragraph 77 mentions four specific places classified material was believed to be. They request the ability to search these areas, all storage areas and basically any building in Mar A Lago that is not rented out to other people.
The last two pages lay out where, they will search and what they want to seize. If I remember some of the language "contraband or evidence of violations of 18 USC 793 is the same language used in the Clinton search warrant.
The photos do not verify their description. This is a photo of a Chevy." The photo has some automotive shape covered by a tarpaulin. Really?
You're making the giant assumption......that the DOJ is claiming the photo is of a Chevy, but there's no actual Chevy under there. As I pointed out the DOJ has already offered testimony of this to the grand jury and said so in several files. Trump's lawyers have offered no information the evidence the documents were not classified. Remember that Trump returned documents to NARA before the DOJ got involved and they were classified AND Trump's lawyer then found more classified material and returned them. The photo also had several documents that were redacted.
Nauta et al. could have legacy clearance from Trump.
We have pictures from Nauta's et al phones that show the documents were kept in a bathroom and on stage in the ballroom. Do you think either of this was a SCIF? How would "legacy" clearance affect this. Why would Walt Nauta have a need to know top secret/SCI material? He was a valet.
It seems to me that the FBI agents and DoJ personnel should have obtained security clearance IN ADVANCE OF THE RAID.
"Classified material" is not specific. Specific classified material would be specific, but the issue is "particular," which means it must be identified "in particular," as being something and not something else. I.e., identification of specific documents. It classified documents had been turned over to Trump, where are the custody receipts? The document control authority would have a copy of the receipt for the last known custodian (e.g., Trump or the Office of the President). They wouldn't need to ransack Trump's home; they would only need to show up and present the list of particular documents. Collecting anything else is a fishing expedition. Why, therefore, would any unclassified material be scooped up (such as magazines)?
As I pointed out, the only assumption about photos is that what is concealed is really present. You do not disprove this.
If documents were unclassified, there are no controls over custody. Moreover, past precedent has established that Presidents have essentially an unrestricted right to retain documents after office (e.g., Clinton materials). Questions or disputes over this subject are supposed to be handled by negotiation or civil suit.
Cover sheets are necessary to preserve compartmentalization of need to know, so only an unclassified title would be visible (if even that), and the document control number. They are comparable to the package a purchased item comes in: an indicator of contents, but not even remotely to be considered the real thing.
As it turns out, I have read recently that the indictment does not relate to classified document control, but to supposed violations of the Espionage Act. It will be interesting to see how this fares before a real jury. Such as the background that Nauta's attorney was offered a bribe to testify for the government. This is the same FBI and DoJ that you are so scrupulously defending from any hint of misbehavior. You have an uphill battle.
You are not reading closely. When I refer to the warrant, I am referring to the warrant, which was permission to go on a fishing expedition. I read it. You apparently did not. This is not the role of a warrant, per the Constitution ("particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"---"particularly," not "generally"). The list of "stuff they found" was nowhere specific---it was like saying they found some firearms, but did not provide make, model, or serial numbers.
You are going all-in for the Establishment by claiming the FBI did not use the falsified information to pursue FISA warrants for the purpose of conducting investigation of Trump & Co. I am surprised you are not being called out by the usual shill-intolerant people.
The photos do not verify their description. You can't tell that any classified documents are present from that photo. Unless you ASSUME that what is alleged is ipso facto true. No, allegations need to be established in court.
And if they were declassified, that would be consistent with HOW THEY WERE TREATED BY THE FBI. You simply don't understand how to handle classified documents. Nothing concerning them is "standard procedure." It is always a special procedure. I speak from experience.
Again, I think you looking at things that are standard procedure and saying they are out of line
The warrant was not overly broad.....if it was .....I haven't heard Trump's lawyers challenge it. Why Not? Because so far it seems standard. You keep talking about the property receipt which I know of no Constitutional requirement to be highly specific there.
This is not the only form of identification of the evidence. It will all get catalogued later. Each document will be given an individual BATES number, which is how it will get tracked through discovery.
Again this was not Trump. It was Carter Page. After he quit the Trump Campaign. And remember why Page was suspicious? He continued to associate with Evgeny Buryakov even after being told by the FBI that Buryakov was a spy trying to recruit him. This is the FBI got a FISA warrant on him in 2014 well before he was ever associated with Trump. Ant the first two warrants stood. Which is why Page has lost every lawsuit he's tried.
I dunno know about you but I think a guy with ties to Russian spies who then gets close to the Republican candidate for President should legitimately be looked at.
Page easily could have been working his own agenda against Trump.
The photo shows documents with top secret cover sheets AND
NO indication they have been declassified.
This issue has already been before multiple courts. It would have been presented to the grand jury. Remember when the documents were being reviewed by "a special master" to see what documents the DOJ could retain?
The guy Trump wanted as special master told Trump's lawyers the documents are marked classified, unless you show me evidence they were declassified, I will treat them just how they are marked. Trump's lawyers didn't present any evidence. This was back in September before the indictment. Had they presented evidence these documents were not classified it could have prevented the indictment.
The DOJ told the judge in that same case, some of the prosecutors cannot view the documents because they don't have clearance.
Trump's and Nauta's lawyers are going to have to get security clearance. The judge ordered this
It seems like people are in fact, treating these as classified documents
It is difficult to converse with you because you are not following the gist of the conversation. Let me put it plainly: According to law (appropriate statutes), classified material must be handled in a particular way. This is additional to any constitutional requirements (which, in any case, were not met).
Again, I read the warrant. It basically amounted to "go there and grab anything you think could be classified material." Not PARTICULAR at all. No specificity as to where in the dwelling or the identity of the things sought.
Questions are not arguments, and certainly are not refutations of the points I am bringing forth. Just because you don't know, doesn't mean that you know otherwise.
Page was an asset of the CIA. The FISA warrant was the toe in the door to look at whomever Page was associating with. The FISA warrant I am talking about was the one that alluded to the Steele Memorandum as source material, which was clearly about Trump.
The photos do not verify their description. "This is a photo of a Chevy." The photo has some automotive shape covered by a tarpaulin. Really? You are not looking at the photo. "This is a photo of a parrot." The photo is a cage covered by a cloth. Really? Cover sheets are mere paper and have no ultimately classified significance...especially when there are no document identifiers such as numbers or titles. Show me a cover sheet and I will show you how to light a fire with it. Declassification could be implemented by a Presidential memo for record, or even verbal instruction. There is no required procedure.
You rely on supposition about what Trump's lawyers may or may not be doing. That does not address the points I am making. If they are not experts in classified document control, they may be overlooking the points I am making.
Trump, as President, had the ultimate authority over classification. Nauta et al. could have legacy clearance from Trump. Meanwhile, the DoJ is NOT treating these materials as if they are truly classified, because they are violating all the standards of custody control. For them, "classified" means "Nyaa, nyaa. We are the ultimate authority, not the President." It seems to me that the FBI agents and DoJ personnel should have obtained security clearance IN ADVANCE OF THE RAID. How would this be possible if they had no idea if or what Trump had in the way of classified material? Not only is there a clearance necessary for classification level (e.g., CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, TOP SECRET, SCI) there is also the issue of "need to know." Just because you have a level clearance doesn't mean you have a need to know. I think it is safe to say that no FBI agents had either level clearances or need to know authorizations.
I have handled classified materials up to TOP SECRET and SCI, for 40 years. The requirements for custody and transfer are rigorous. You are evidently completely ignorant of this and not interested in learning. Meanwhile, you are defending the conspicuously corrupt DoJ as faithfully as a dog, speculating and supposing rationalizations on behalf of that selfsame DoJ.
I welcome anyone to jump into this discussion.
"Classified material" is specific. You don't need anything else. All classified material would be subject to seizure even if no crime was committed because retrieval of classified info is valid. Page 18 of the warrant mentions that any and all classified material was subpoenaed and gives a list of like 25 code classifications.
The warrant mentions knowing two locations where the FPOTUS's White House boxes were stored. One is redacted and but it specifically mentions the storage room where the box were kept and describes it having a gold door and being up a short flight of stairs. It has photos of storage room with dozens of boxes in it. The DOJ visited this room before the search warrant was issued.
Furthermore, we just learned this week that Walt Nauta was seen on security footage moving boxes out of this storage room AFTER the FBI interviewed him about the boxes. This was also before Trump's lawyer enters the room to search for documents subject to the subpoena. Because of this the DOJ concludes Trump's lawyer could not have searched all the boxes, because Nauta moved them. They also say they learned classified info was moved "FPOTUS's residential suite and PINE HALL." A lot is redacted after that.
Paragraph 77 mentions four specific places classified material was believed to be. They request the ability to search these areas, all storage areas and basically any building in Mar A Lago that is not rented out to other people.
The last two pages lay out where, they will search and what they want to seize. If I remember some of the language "contraband or evidence of violations of 18 USC 793 is the same language used in the Clinton search warrant.
You're making the giant assumption......that the DOJ is claiming the photo is of a Chevy, but there's no actual Chevy under there. As I pointed out the DOJ has already offered testimony of this to the grand jury and said so in several files. Trump's lawyers have offered no information the evidence the documents were not classified. Remember that Trump returned documents to NARA before the DOJ got involved and they were classified AND Trump's lawyer then found more classified material and returned them. The photo also had several documents that were redacted.
We have pictures from Nauta's et al phones that show the documents were kept in a bathroom and on stage in the ballroom. Do you think either of this was a SCIF? How would "legacy" clearance affect this. Why would Walt Nauta have a need to know top secret/SCI material? He was a valet.
that's the beauty of the cover sheet isn't it?
I'm speculating?
Here's Trump's search warrant. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23867835-govuscourtsflsd6178541561
Here's the one for Reality Winner https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3848398-Reality-Winner-Affidavit-for-Application-of
tons of similarity in terms of specificity.
"Classified material" is not specific. Specific classified material would be specific, but the issue is "particular," which means it must be identified "in particular," as being something and not something else. I.e., identification of specific documents. It classified documents had been turned over to Trump, where are the custody receipts? The document control authority would have a copy of the receipt for the last known custodian (e.g., Trump or the Office of the President). They wouldn't need to ransack Trump's home; they would only need to show up and present the list of particular documents. Collecting anything else is a fishing expedition. Why, therefore, would any unclassified material be scooped up (such as magazines)?
As I pointed out, the only assumption about photos is that what is concealed is really present. You do not disprove this.
If documents were unclassified, there are no controls over custody. Moreover, past precedent has established that Presidents have essentially an unrestricted right to retain documents after office (e.g., Clinton materials). Questions or disputes over this subject are supposed to be handled by negotiation or civil suit.
Cover sheets are necessary to preserve compartmentalization of need to know, so only an unclassified title would be visible (if even that), and the document control number. They are comparable to the package a purchased item comes in: an indicator of contents, but not even remotely to be considered the real thing.
As it turns out, I have read recently that the indictment does not relate to classified document control, but to supposed violations of the Espionage Act. It will be interesting to see how this fares before a real jury. Such as the background that Nauta's attorney was offered a bribe to testify for the government. This is the same FBI and DoJ that you are so scrupulously defending from any hint of misbehavior. You have an uphill battle.