Again, I read the warrant. It basically amounted to "go there and grab anything you think could be classified material." Not PARTICULAR at all. No specificity as to where in the dwelling or the identity of the things sought.
"Classified material" is specific. You don't need anything else. All classified material would be subject to seizure even if no crime was committed because retrieval of classified info is valid. Page 18 of the warrant mentions that any and all classified material was subpoenaed and gives a list of like 25 code classifications.
The warrant mentions knowing two locations where the FPOTUS's White House boxes were stored. One is redacted and but it specifically mentions the storage room where the box were kept and describes it having a gold door and being up a short flight of stairs. It has photos of storage room with dozens of boxes in it. The DOJ visited this room before the search warrant was issued.
Furthermore, we just learned this week that Walt Nauta was seen on security footage moving boxes out of this storage room AFTER the FBI interviewed him about the boxes. This was also before Trump's lawyer enters the room to search for documents subject to the subpoena. Because of this the DOJ concludes Trump's lawyer could not have searched all the boxes, because Nauta moved them.
They also say they learned classified info was moved "FPOTUS's residential suite and PINE HALL." A lot is redacted after that.
Paragraph 77 mentions four specific places classified material was believed to be. They request the ability to search these areas, all storage areas and basically any building in Mar A Lago that is not rented out to other people.
The last two pages lay out where, they will search and what they want to seize. If I remember some of the language "contraband or evidence of violations of 18 USC 793 is the same language used in the Clinton search warrant.
The photos do not verify their description. This is a photo of a Chevy." The photo has some automotive shape covered by a tarpaulin. Really?
You're making the giant assumption......that the DOJ is claiming the photo is of a Chevy, but there's no actual Chevy under there. As I pointed out the DOJ has already offered testimony of this to the grand jury and said so in several files. Trump's lawyers have offered no information the evidence the documents were not classified. Remember that Trump returned documents to NARA before the DOJ got involved and they were classified AND Trump's lawyer then found more classified material and returned them. The photo also had several documents that were redacted.
Nauta et al. could have legacy clearance from Trump.
We have pictures from Nauta's et al phones that show the documents were kept in a bathroom and on stage in the ballroom. Do you think either of this was a SCIF? How would "legacy" clearance affect this. Why would Walt Nauta have a need to know top secret/SCI material? He was a valet.
It seems to me that the FBI agents and DoJ personnel should have obtained security clearance IN ADVANCE OF THE RAID.
"Classified material" is not specific. Specific classified material would be specific, but the issue is "particular," which means it must be identified "in particular," as being something and not something else. I.e., identification of specific documents. It classified documents had been turned over to Trump, where are the custody receipts? The document control authority would have a copy of the receipt for the last known custodian (e.g., Trump or the Office of the President). They wouldn't need to ransack Trump's home; they would only need to show up and present the list of particular documents. Collecting anything else is a fishing expedition. Why, therefore, would any unclassified material be scooped up (such as magazines)?
As I pointed out, the only assumption about photos is that what is concealed is really present. You do not disprove this.
If documents were unclassified, there are no controls over custody. Moreover, past precedent has established that Presidents have essentially an unrestricted right to retain documents after office (e.g., Clinton materials). Questions or disputes over this subject are supposed to be handled by negotiation or civil suit.
Cover sheets are necessary to preserve compartmentalization of need to know, so only an unclassified title would be visible (if even that), and the document control number. They are comparable to the package a purchased item comes in: an indicator of contents, but not even remotely to be considered the real thing.
As it turns out, I have read recently that the indictment does not relate to classified document control, but to supposed violations of the Espionage Act. It will be interesting to see how this fares before a real jury. Such as the background that Nauta's attorney was offered a bribe to testify for the government. This is the same FBI and DoJ that you are so scrupulously defending from any hint of misbehavior. You have an uphill battle.
It's absolutely specific enough for a search warrant. If you are searching for cocaine, you don't need to specify where it's from or whose stamp is on it. Nothing more is needed. This is standard.
It classified documents had been turned over to Trump, where are the custody receipts? The document control authority would have a copy of the receipt for the last known custodian (e.g., Trump or the Office of the President). They wouldn't need to ransack Trump's home; they would only need to show up and present the list of particular documents.
The National Archives started trying to get documents back from Trump in 2021. They knew documents were missing. He eventually returned 15 boxes, the boxes had classified documents in them....after a lot of back and forth the Investigative division of NARA made a referral to DOJ. DOJ issued a subpoena. There were still documents found at Mar a Lago where the search warrant was served.
As for what we don't see in the photos. Here's how what has been logged as evidence it's tracked, It's 64 page list of numbers. Every item would get a Bates number, for examplea box gets a bates number, then for every documents inside the box, every single page would get its own Bates number. There's almost 3K numbers, so lots of pages were taken. And they will be give to Trump as evidence. (The Chevy under the tarp so to speak)
I have read recently that the indictment does not relate to classified document control, but to supposed violations of the Espionage Act. It will be interesting to see how this fares before a real jury.
The Espionage Act is older than the classification system, so the language it contains is about "Nation Defense Information." but in court, one way you prove the documents involve NDI is to show they were classified.......so it's kind of the same thing.
Trump is charged with violating this section 18 U.S.C. Section 793 (e)
It's the same section Reality Winner, Bradley Manning and Jack Teixeira were charged with. A lot of people think General Petraeus should have been charged with this, but he plead guilty and got a deal.
"Cocaine" has a specific chemical identity. To search for "cocaine" is tremendously specific, as compared to searching for "white powder."
You keep talking as though we can trust the FBI, with item tag numbers and so forth. Even though there is no way now of establishing that any of these things were either in Trump's possession or inserted by the FBI. 30 years ago, I was on hand to watch how the FBI executed an arrest warrant on David Koresh in Waco, Texas. It ended with the immolation of 86 men, women, and children in a massacre on television. The FBI fully asserted their righteousness after the fact. AG Janet Reno was the epitome of cold defiant contempt toward Congress in her testimony. They bulldozed the rubble to destroy the crime scene.
If you want to take as your ground rule that the FBI and DoJ have spotless integrity and are above putting their thumbs on the scales...well, we don't live in the same world. And you still know nothing about how actual classified material is handled and kept, since I have had to inform you of details all along and you don't seem to grasp their significance.
"Classified material" is specific. You don't need anything else. All classified material would be subject to seizure even if no crime was committed because retrieval of classified info is valid. Page 18 of the warrant mentions that any and all classified material was subpoenaed and gives a list of like 25 code classifications.
The warrant mentions knowing two locations where the FPOTUS's White House boxes were stored. One is redacted and but it specifically mentions the storage room where the box were kept and describes it having a gold door and being up a short flight of stairs. It has photos of storage room with dozens of boxes in it. The DOJ visited this room before the search warrant was issued.
Furthermore, we just learned this week that Walt Nauta was seen on security footage moving boxes out of this storage room AFTER the FBI interviewed him about the boxes. This was also before Trump's lawyer enters the room to search for documents subject to the subpoena. Because of this the DOJ concludes Trump's lawyer could not have searched all the boxes, because Nauta moved them. They also say they learned classified info was moved "FPOTUS's residential suite and PINE HALL." A lot is redacted after that.
Paragraph 77 mentions four specific places classified material was believed to be. They request the ability to search these areas, all storage areas and basically any building in Mar A Lago that is not rented out to other people.
The last two pages lay out where, they will search and what they want to seize. If I remember some of the language "contraband or evidence of violations of 18 USC 793 is the same language used in the Clinton search warrant.
You're making the giant assumption......that the DOJ is claiming the photo is of a Chevy, but there's no actual Chevy under there. As I pointed out the DOJ has already offered testimony of this to the grand jury and said so in several files. Trump's lawyers have offered no information the evidence the documents were not classified. Remember that Trump returned documents to NARA before the DOJ got involved and they were classified AND Trump's lawyer then found more classified material and returned them. The photo also had several documents that were redacted.
We have pictures from Nauta's et al phones that show the documents were kept in a bathroom and on stage in the ballroom. Do you think either of this was a SCIF? How would "legacy" clearance affect this. Why would Walt Nauta have a need to know top secret/SCI material? He was a valet.
that's the beauty of the cover sheet isn't it?
I'm speculating?
Here's Trump's search warrant. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23867835-govuscourtsflsd6178541561
Here's the one for Reality Winner https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3848398-Reality-Winner-Affidavit-for-Application-of
tons of similarity in terms of specificity.
"Classified material" is not specific. Specific classified material would be specific, but the issue is "particular," which means it must be identified "in particular," as being something and not something else. I.e., identification of specific documents. It classified documents had been turned over to Trump, where are the custody receipts? The document control authority would have a copy of the receipt for the last known custodian (e.g., Trump or the Office of the President). They wouldn't need to ransack Trump's home; they would only need to show up and present the list of particular documents. Collecting anything else is a fishing expedition. Why, therefore, would any unclassified material be scooped up (such as magazines)?
As I pointed out, the only assumption about photos is that what is concealed is really present. You do not disprove this.
If documents were unclassified, there are no controls over custody. Moreover, past precedent has established that Presidents have essentially an unrestricted right to retain documents after office (e.g., Clinton materials). Questions or disputes over this subject are supposed to be handled by negotiation or civil suit.
Cover sheets are necessary to preserve compartmentalization of need to know, so only an unclassified title would be visible (if even that), and the document control number. They are comparable to the package a purchased item comes in: an indicator of contents, but not even remotely to be considered the real thing.
As it turns out, I have read recently that the indictment does not relate to classified document control, but to supposed violations of the Espionage Act. It will be interesting to see how this fares before a real jury. Such as the background that Nauta's attorney was offered a bribe to testify for the government. This is the same FBI and DoJ that you are so scrupulously defending from any hint of misbehavior. You have an uphill battle.
It's absolutely specific enough for a search warrant. If you are searching for cocaine, you don't need to specify where it's from or whose stamp is on it. Nothing more is needed. This is standard.
The National Archives started trying to get documents back from Trump in 2021. They knew documents were missing. He eventually returned 15 boxes, the boxes had classified documents in them....after a lot of back and forth the Investigative division of NARA made a referral to DOJ. DOJ issued a subpoena. There were still documents found at Mar a Lago where the search warrant was served.
As for what we don't see in the photos. Here's how what has been logged as evidence it's tracked, It's 64 page list of numbers. Every item would get a Bates number, for examplea box gets a bates number, then for every documents inside the box, every single page would get its own Bates number. There's almost 3K numbers, so lots of pages were taken. And they will be give to Trump as evidence. (The Chevy under the tarp so to speak)
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23170135-221012-bates-plus-box-numbers https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bates_numbering
The Espionage Act is older than the classification system, so the language it contains is about "Nation Defense Information." but in court, one way you prove the documents involve NDI is to show they were classified.......so it's kind of the same thing.
Trump is charged with violating this section 18 U.S.C. Section 793 (e)
It's the same section Reality Winner, Bradley Manning and Jack Teixeira were charged with. A lot of people think General Petraeus should have been charged with this, but he plead guilty and got a deal.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/federal-government-contractor-georgia-charged-removing-and-mailing-classified-materials-news
My basic point is and has been: This is a serious case.
"Cocaine" has a specific chemical identity. To search for "cocaine" is tremendously specific, as compared to searching for "white powder."
You keep talking as though we can trust the FBI, with item tag numbers and so forth. Even though there is no way now of establishing that any of these things were either in Trump's possession or inserted by the FBI. 30 years ago, I was on hand to watch how the FBI executed an arrest warrant on David Koresh in Waco, Texas. It ended with the immolation of 86 men, women, and children in a massacre on television. The FBI fully asserted their righteousness after the fact. AG Janet Reno was the epitome of cold defiant contempt toward Congress in her testimony. They bulldozed the rubble to destroy the crime scene.
If you want to take as your ground rule that the FBI and DoJ have spotless integrity and are above putting their thumbs on the scales...well, we don't live in the same world. And you still know nothing about how actual classified material is handled and kept, since I have had to inform you of details all along and you don't seem to grasp their significance.
Wow.