Exactly, you can put a seasoned tank crew in an older T-72 and put a bunch of conscripts who got less training than the line cook at Denny's into a top of the line Abrams X and the T-72 will destroy it easily.
This. It's not possible to look at tanks just as tanks. It has to be combined arms if you want to be successful on the battlefield. That means artillery providing rapid targeting of a fluid target space, providing smoke and cover and precision weapons as drones and reconnaissance and counter battery Radars feed data into a central satellite link through complex battle space management. Ukraine is so corrupt and so inapt and now so fractured that it's literally impossible to fight the Russian army.
It's not so much the kit, the Leopard 2 is a formidable MBT, I assure you after years of working/living on them it's how skilled and how much experience the crew has which makes the difference!
The idea that raw recruits in Ukraine get a few weeks being taught the basics by NATO troops on how to operate these vehicles, then go out into the battlefield and survive is laughable!
For instance in the cold war, troops that trained constantly for battle against the old Soviet union on the plains in Germany had an estimated survival time of 21 mins. Now that's with troops who had years of experience of these vehicles.
A few weeks training and no experience, not a chance!
To be fair to the argument, it was also about the sheer amount of numbers we would have encountered as well.
They are complex machines, we pretty much stayed with our vehicle for quite a length of time and would understand it's nuance's, what would break, how to fix it, a good tank crew could strip down the pack (engine) for a lift (removal) in a short space of time.
The spares backup will be another big problem in Ukraine, these things break down a lot and without a decent quick supply chain, it will also add to the woes.
The Leopard tank is a great piece of equipment, People would say the M1 Abrams was a POS in the same senario. You can not put equipment like this into the hands of untrained personal. I was a Gunner on the M1 Abrams and it is a BADASS TANK. In fact I was one of the Best Gunners in 2nd Armored Division when I was in the Army. It does take a lot of training to become skilled with these pieces of machinery. As the saying goes a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. So yes putting unqualified people in charge of Machines is a very bad idea.
Also requires competent, fearsome warriors to operate the equipment, far superior or not.
Exactly, you can put a seasoned tank crew in an older T-72 and put a bunch of conscripts who got less training than the line cook at Denny's into a top of the line Abrams X and the T-72 will destroy it easily.
Hold on. Those line cooks got six weeks of training in the UK. They're good to go.
Was just coming here to say ^this^.
A tank with no air support is a casket.
This. It's not possible to look at tanks just as tanks. It has to be combined arms if you want to be successful on the battlefield. That means artillery providing rapid targeting of a fluid target space, providing smoke and cover and precision weapons as drones and reconnaissance and counter battery Radars feed data into a central satellite link through complex battle space management. Ukraine is so corrupt and so inapt and now so fractured that it's literally impossible to fight the Russian army.
Exactly anon.
It's not so much the kit, the Leopard 2 is a formidable MBT, I assure you after years of working/living on them it's how skilled and how much experience the crew has which makes the difference!
The idea that raw recruits in Ukraine get a few weeks being taught the basics by NATO troops on how to operate these vehicles, then go out into the battlefield and survive is laughable!
For instance in the cold war, troops that trained constantly for battle against the old Soviet union on the plains in Germany had an estimated survival time of 21 mins. Now that's with troops who had years of experience of these vehicles.
A few weeks training and no experience, not a chance!
All that training for 21 minutes? That's a horrifying statistic...
To be fair to the argument, it was also about the sheer amount of numbers we would have encountered as well.
They are complex machines, we pretty much stayed with our vehicle for quite a length of time and would understand it's nuance's, what would break, how to fix it, a good tank crew could strip down the pack (engine) for a lift (removal) in a short space of time.
The spares backup will be another big problem in Ukraine, these things break down a lot and without a decent quick supply chain, it will also add to the woes.
The Leopard tank is a great piece of equipment, People would say the M1 Abrams was a POS in the same senario. You can not put equipment like this into the hands of untrained personal. I was a Gunner on the M1 Abrams and it is a BADASS TANK. In fact I was one of the Best Gunners in 2nd Armored Division when I was in the Army. It does take a lot of training to become skilled with these pieces of machinery. As the saying goes a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. So yes putting unqualified people in charge of Machines is a very bad idea.
You can give a retard a race car, that doesn't mean he will win a race.
they abandon them without firing a shot, so.....hard to judge the efficacy.
Good insights! Thanks!