I can see where you're coming from, I just don't think the Catholic position is any less valid than your own. Does praying to the mother of God glorify God? Why shouldn't it?
to me it seems like the depth of symbolism in the Catholic church is indicative of the depth of symbolism in the Bible. Simple and complex are not mutually exclusive terms.
and hey, i've even resisted mentioning the whole 'faith without works' thing. in which i usually favour faith as well, but certainly not at the prohibition of 'works'.
Whenever i hear stuff against the Catholic church, its either from reeeing atheists, or the kind of people who think having a painting or poster on your wall or a wooden bracelet is idolatry. all of whom are entitled to their opinions...
but the only ones I find credible are those who point out that the pope is a pedophile and the church has been infiltrated. because that's not ridiculous.
the rest is just more of the same theological debate that's been going on since forever. honestly, I think that debate should be discouraged on GAW. this is not the place to gatekeep Christianity and push your own brand.
The Catholic obsession with Mary is just not supported by Biblical text. Mary was a Virgin when Jesus was born, but Jesus had siblings, so Mary did not remain a virgin! I'm not aware of any Bible verse where praying to Mary, or anyone else besides Jesus/God is done, or referred to. God is so far above human existence, that it is insulting to God to pray to anyone other than God.
Clearly others have interpreted Biblical text differently than yourself. My beliefs don't have to make sense to you if they make sense to me. I don't think its a stretch to consider Mary worthy of prayer if she was worthy of bearing God's son. If you don't understand how that's relevant, then just stick to God. Simple as.
God has used various people, even bad ones, as part of His plan for man. Mary was a good person, used by God, for a specific purpose. Just because God uses a person does not elevate that person above anyone else, let alone raise them up to near deity status.
I get that, but... you don't think its even a little disingenuous to just lump the mother of God in with the rest of His servants?
she shouldn't even be lumped in with the saints... ...who Catholics also pray to. obviously you won't get that either, but that doesn't make it forbidden.
Does praying to the mother of God glorify God? Why shouldn't it?
Exodus 20:4-6
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Catholics often pray to statues, so they removed the second commandment from their version of the Ten Commandments, and split the tenth commandment into two separate commandments about covetousness, hoping nobody would notice.
This worked well when the scriptures were hidden behind ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Latin, and nobody could read. Not so much anymore.
Luke 8:19-20
19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
21 And he answered and said unto them,My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
You're right about works though. Works don't save you, but if you truly believe in Christ, works are evidence of the changes happening within. You write the commandments on your heart and live by the spirit, and not just the letter of the law.
John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
And when we inevitably stumble?
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
They absolutely pray to saints, who are represented by statues, and those saints are not God. I know this to be 100% fact. They may be mistaken in what they were taught, but they still do it, 100%.
God is the only entity to pray to. Praying to anyone but the Holy Trinity within Christianity, is idolatry.
Then I hope you don't ever ask anyone here on earth to "pray for you" because that kind of request for intercession is exactly why Catholics pray to saints and hold them in high regard for the witness of their lives.
I have no problem with these. Just shows the deep respect for the image of the mother of the Savior. As she said in the gospel of St. Luke, "All generations will call me blessed." If a person has a precious image of a family member, they frame it, put it in a place of honor and look at it with love. They do not think the image is the person. It's not wrong to do this. So it's also understandable for the disciples of Jesus to honor an image of His mother. I cannot help or change your interpretation of them, but these are not any kind of example of Catholics "praying to statues." The Church of the first centuries definitely venerated Mary and this is evident in the writings of the early church fathers.
I can see how there could be disagreements, but I can't come to the same conclusions that you have. and I really don't see any value in trying to emphasize differences between Christians on this platform. I know we have atheists and Jews here, and I'd be willing to bet we have a handful of Muslims and witches as well. Can we just appreciate the people that speak up against evil, such as Vigano?
I can see where you're coming from, I just don't think the Catholic position is any less valid than your own. Does praying to the mother of God glorify God? Why shouldn't it?
to me it seems like the depth of symbolism in the Catholic church is indicative of the depth of symbolism in the Bible. Simple and complex are not mutually exclusive terms.
and hey, i've even resisted mentioning the whole 'faith without works' thing. in which i usually favour faith as well, but certainly not at the prohibition of 'works'.
Whenever i hear stuff against the Catholic church, its either from reeeing atheists, or the kind of people who think having a painting or poster on your wall or a wooden bracelet is idolatry. all of whom are entitled to their opinions...
but the only ones I find credible are those who point out that the pope is a pedophile and the church has been infiltrated. because that's not ridiculous.
the rest is just more of the same theological debate that's been going on since forever. honestly, I think that debate should be discouraged on GAW. this is not the place to gatekeep Christianity and push your own brand.
The Catholic obsession with Mary is just not supported by Biblical text. Mary was a Virgin when Jesus was born, but Jesus had siblings, so Mary did not remain a virgin! I'm not aware of any Bible verse where praying to Mary, or anyone else besides Jesus/God is done, or referred to. God is so far above human existence, that it is insulting to God to pray to anyone other than God.
Clearly others have interpreted Biblical text differently than yourself. My beliefs don't have to make sense to you if they make sense to me. I don't think its a stretch to consider Mary worthy of prayer if she was worthy of bearing God's son. If you don't understand how that's relevant, then just stick to God. Simple as.
God has used various people, even bad ones, as part of His plan for man. Mary was a good person, used by God, for a specific purpose. Just because God uses a person does not elevate that person above anyone else, let alone raise them up to near deity status.
I get that, but... you don't think its even a little disingenuous to just lump the mother of God in with the rest of His servants?
she shouldn't even be lumped in with the saints... ...who Catholics also pray to. obviously you won't get that either, but that doesn't make it forbidden.
Exodus 20:4-6
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Catholics often pray to statues, so they removed the second commandment from their version of the Ten Commandments, and split the tenth commandment into two separate commandments about covetousness, hoping nobody would notice.
This worked well when the scriptures were hidden behind ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Latin, and nobody could read. Not so much anymore.
Luke 8:19-20
19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
You're right about works though. Works don't save you, but if you truly believe in Christ, works are evidence of the changes happening within. You write the commandments on your heart and live by the spirit, and not just the letter of the law.
John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
And when we inevitably stumble?
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Catholics DON'T "pray to statues"! So tired of this ignorant and false statement.
They absolutely pray to saints, who are represented by statues, and those saints are not God. I know this to be 100% fact. They may be mistaken in what they were taught, but they still do it, 100%.
God is the only entity to pray to. Praying to anyone but the Holy Trinity within Christianity, is idolatry.
Then I hope you don't ever ask anyone here on earth to "pray for you" because that kind of request for intercession is exactly why Catholics pray to saints and hold them in high regard for the witness of their lives.
Explain these videos to me, and I'm aware the Catholics refer to this as "veneration" -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQbhbUil750
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE4rumV1Xb0
I have no problem with these. Just shows the deep respect for the image of the mother of the Savior. As she said in the gospel of St. Luke, "All generations will call me blessed." If a person has a precious image of a family member, they frame it, put it in a place of honor and look at it with love. They do not think the image is the person. It's not wrong to do this. So it's also understandable for the disciples of Jesus to honor an image of His mother. I cannot help or change your interpretation of them, but these are not any kind of example of Catholics "praying to statues." The Church of the first centuries definitely venerated Mary and this is evident in the writings of the early church fathers.
I can see how there could be disagreements, but I can't come to the same conclusions that you have. and I really don't see any value in trying to emphasize differences between Christians on this platform. I know we have atheists and Jews here, and I'd be willing to bet we have a handful of Muslims and witches as well. Can we just appreciate the people that speak up against evil, such as Vigano?
Because once the truth on earth is revealed in the future, my guess is there will just be Christian’s and non-christians.
The infiltration of the modern catholic church will be its demise, among many other modern Christian denominations.
I pray for it every single day.