So, what is the issue with Trump having these documents?
Do you want the simple version where this is just a sting operation?
or the more complicated version where this is serious case?
The backstory to this starts with Nixon. Nixon was planning on breaking custom and keeping his presidential records. In fact, he planned on donating them and claiming a giant tax write off in the millions. Congress then passed a law that just applied to Nixon. In 1978 they passed a law that applied to all future presidents, the Presidential Records Act.
The PRA said several things.The most important thing is the President does not own Presidential Records. They are not private, they are public. They are owned by the United States.
Among other things, the PRA
Establishes public ownership of all Presidential records and defines the term Presidential records.
.>Places the responsibility for the custody and management of incumbent Presidential records with the President (While in office, the President has them.)
Establishes that Presidential records automatically **transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist **as soon as the President leaves office. (So the National Archives or NARA is the custodian of presidential records)
So far so good, but you also have to define what a presidential record is. Basically any records relating to
constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties
A letter to Trump from his high school gym teacher saying, We always knew you would go far? That's a personal record.
All of this is aside from classified materials. All presidential records are publicly owned and the legal custodian is the national archvies.
How clear is it that a President is the final authority of what is classified? The president is the ultimate authority of declassifying documents. Having documents in the possession of an outgoing president is a long held precedent. The courts have rule on this as being automatic. So, what is the issue with Trump having these documents?
President is ultimate authority on classification.....while they are in office. So there's a few issues.
Only personal records are supposed to go with presidents, not presidential records.
A classified document that becomes declassified is still a presidential record, it can never be a personal record. But this isn't what the indictment is about.
Trump is not charged with possessing these documents but "willfully retaining" them. That's the language of the law and it basically means not giving them back when asked to. He did give back so documents but not all.
The security clearance thing doesn't matter in terms of what he is charged with. The charges would be the same if he had full clearance. Because even if are allowed to access to the info, you can't just keep it.
Going back the President having the authority to declassify. The question is did he actually declassify them while President? If this is his defense that all these documents were declassified, he will have to prove this. The courts had the judge are saying these are classified and his lawyers need clearance and can only view these documents in a secure location.
All of this is good information, however the precedent shows otherwise. Obama and Clinton to name a few ex-presidents that have plenty of government classified documents. In fact, all of them have had the same. The court has ruled that the president when leaving office has the benefit of the doubt of having declassified any records he takes with him. You seem to forget how our courts work though, it isn't the defendant that has the burden of proving his innocence, it's the other way around. It is the prosecution that has the burden of proving guilt. Trump has shown an official dated letter of an EO declassifying the documents. Therefore, the documents were declassified in his possession. This is why after they were seized by the FBI, they were reclassified.
There has never been a case like this in the history of the United States. Even if 'some how' Trump had classified documents, which IMHO is automatically declassified when he left office, the evidence shows that he had the security clearance to have them up to after the MAL FBI raid.
Did you catch the chicanery of what the DOJ did? After the MAL FBI raid, the documents they took were re-classified. Trump's security clearance was suppose to be secretly revoked before the MAL raid. It didn't work out that way though. Trump's security clearance was revoked after the raid.
Apparently from what you stated, it doesn't matter if its the complicated version or the simple version, the end result is this is theater for the persecution of Trump.
"If the government gives me prima facie evidence (a legal term meaning a fact presumed to be true unless disproved) that this is classified, and you decide not to advance a claim of declassification ... as far as I'm concerned that's the end of it," Dearie told Trump's lawyers in his first public hearing on the matter.
Trump has shown an official dated letter of an EO declassifying the documents.
This is exactly the type evidence Trump will need to provide.
However, I believe the documents he did declassify related to the Crossfire Hurricane investigation. None of those documents are the ones in the Indictment.
Even if 'some how' Trump had classified documents, which IMHO is automatically declassified when he left office, the evidence shows that he had the security clearance to have them up to after the MAL FBI raid.
Automatic declassification is not a thing. Your opinion or my opinion about it doesn't matter.
The security clearance is not an issue. The issue is the documents were subpoenaed and he didn't return them. That's what he is charged with
The charges would be the same if he had a clearance. Remember General Petraeus ? He had a clearance when he was convicted.
I disagree with your legacy news sounding talking points. I'm not buying your talking points You keep ignoring the most important points made in my last two posts. How come? Then you repeat your legacy news sounding talking points. General Paetraeus does not have the authority the president has. Apple and oranges. .
Do you want the simple version where this is just a sting operation?
or the more complicated version where this is serious case?
The backstory to this starts with Nixon. Nixon was planning on breaking custom and keeping his presidential records. In fact, he planned on donating them and claiming a giant tax write off in the millions. Congress then passed a law that just applied to Nixon. In 1978 they passed a law that applied to all future presidents, the Presidential Records Act.
https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-act.html
The PRA said several things.The most important thing is the President does not own Presidential Records. They are not private, they are public. They are owned by the United States.
Among other things, the PRA
.>Places the responsibility for the custody and management of incumbent Presidential records with the President (While in office, the President has them.)
So far so good, but you also have to define what a presidential record is. Basically any records relating to
That big letter got from Kim Jon Un? That's a presidential record.
A letter to Trump from his high school gym teacher saying, We always knew you would go far? That's a personal record.
All of this is aside from classified materials. All presidential records are publicly owned and the legal custodian is the national archvies.
President is ultimate authority on classification.....while they are in office. So there's a few issues.
Only personal records are supposed to go with presidents, not presidential records.
A classified document that becomes declassified is still a presidential record, it can never be a personal record. But this isn't what the indictment is about.
Trump is not charged with possessing these documents but "willfully retaining" them. That's the language of the law and it basically means not giving them back when asked to. He did give back so documents but not all.
The security clearance thing doesn't matter in terms of what he is charged with. The charges would be the same if he had full clearance. Because even if are allowed to access to the info, you can't just keep it.
Going back the President having the authority to declassify. The question is did he actually declassify them while President? If this is his defense that all these documents were declassified, he will have to prove this. The courts had the judge are saying these are classified and his lawyers need clearance and can only view these documents in a secure location.
All of this is good information, however the precedent shows otherwise. Obama and Clinton to name a few ex-presidents that have plenty of government classified documents. In fact, all of them have had the same. The court has ruled that the president when leaving office has the benefit of the doubt of having declassified any records he takes with him. You seem to forget how our courts work though, it isn't the defendant that has the burden of proving his innocence, it's the other way around. It is the prosecution that has the burden of proving guilt. Trump has shown an official dated letter of an EO declassifying the documents. Therefore, the documents were declassified in his possession. This is why after they were seized by the FBI, they were reclassified.
There has never been a case like this in the history of the United States. Even if 'some how' Trump had classified documents, which IMHO is automatically declassified when he left office, the evidence shows that he had the security clearance to have them up to after the MAL FBI raid.
Did you catch the chicanery of what the DOJ did? After the MAL FBI raid, the documents they took were re-classified. Trump's security clearance was suppose to be secretly revoked before the MAL raid. It didn't work out that way though. Trump's security clearance was revoked after the raid.
Apparently from what you stated, it doesn't matter if its the complicated version or the simple version, the end result is this is theater for the persecution of Trump.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. I don't think this is true
This is not true. I think you are confusing this with something else.
These documents are marked as classified. This is "prima facie" evidence they are classified. So Trump will need to counter this evidence.
In fact this has already came up in court last year.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/new-york-judge-takes-up-review-documents-fbi-seized-trumps-home-2022-09-20/
This is exactly the type evidence Trump will need to provide.
However, I believe the documents he did declassify related to the Crossfire Hurricane investigation. None of those documents are the ones in the Indictment.
Automatic declassification is not a thing. Your opinion or my opinion about it doesn't matter.
The security clearance is not an issue. The issue is the documents were subpoenaed and he didn't return them. That's what he is charged with
The charges would be the same if he had a clearance. Remember General Petraeus ? He had a clearance when he was convicted.
I disagree with your legacy news sounding talking points. I'm not buying your talking points You keep ignoring the most important points made in my last two posts. How come? Then you repeat your legacy news sounding talking points. General Paetraeus does not have the authority the president has. Apple and oranges. .
This is not helpful. I linked to a lot of primary sources. If you think I got facts wrong, point them out.
Which points are these?
I think I addressed the main legal issues. And I explained which issues don't apply.