I doubt that will have much effect on vegans who think they are on the moral high ground.
The only thing I focus on is nutrition.
While plants do have nutrients, they have ZERO NUTRITION for humans.
The dietary nutrition that is necessary for humans to have optimal health is: amino acids (protein), fatty acids (saturated fat), vitamins and minerals. We don't NEED anything else to be healthy.
Plant protein is mostly not bioavailable to humans. This is due to (a) the nutrients are locked up in the fiber, which humans cannot digest and, therefore, cannot absorb and utilize (plus, protein needs saturated fat with it in order to be digested at all), (b) plants also have protease inhibitors which block the absorption of any protein that might actually get digested somehow, and (c) the amino acid profile in plants is wrong, so that even if we could get at the protein, ALL plants lack several amino acids and they are in the wrong proportions to each other. Contrast that with animal foods where the protein is HIGHLY bioavailable (97% for eggs, 95% for beef, vs. 5% for soy), it is easily digested, absorbed, and utilized by the human body, and the amino acid profile is ideal in that they have all the essential amino acids, and in the right proportions to each other.
Plant fats are not fats, for the most part. The couple of exceptions are avocado and coconut. All other plants have oils, not fats. Humans do not need plant oils, and in fact plant oils are very toxic and harmful to humans.
Plants do not have vitamins and minerals in the right amounts for humans, are missing some (A, B12, D, K2) altogether, and again are mostly locked up in the fiber so that our digestive system cannot access them -- until they reach the colon where SOME of them can be digested and absorbed due to the bacteria there.
The reason why other primates (apes, etc.) can and do eat plants (exclusively, usually) is because they have bacteria in their stomachs which can break down the fiber/cellulose.
Humans have ZERO bacteria in our stomachs.
Minerals are also not the right type or bioavailable for similar reasons.
In addition, plants have anti-nutrients, which vegans either don't even know about, or never talk about if they do know. These anti-nutrients block the absorption of minerals either partially or completely, depending on the plant.
Finally, ALL plants you will find in your supermarket have a MINIMUM of 60 known human carcinogens. Most have over 100.
Plants cause cancer in humans by way of toxic chemicals (so-called "phytonutrients," which is just a fancy term for plant chemicals).
Among these toxic chemicals are such things as cyanide. Two chemicals in broccoli will mix together when the plant stalk is bitten by an animal, and they will form cyanide. There are numerous similar examples.
Yum yum!
Anyone (i.e. vegans) who claim they care about the welfare of animals to the point where they don't want people to eat their optimal diet for optimal nutrition -- animal foods, in the form of meat, eggs, and dairy -- is a person who is delusional, uneducated, and hates people.
Very good response and you hit many of the key issues associated with vegan diets.
Over time there are malabsorption issues that can, and often do, take their toll. As a clinician for over 25 years I can honestly say that my vegan patients presented with some specific health challenges that manifested at a much younger age than their meat eating cohort equivalents. This was especially true for raw vegans that engaged in high level athletic activities. The younger they were when they started on their path towards veganism, the younger these problems seem to manifest. Many of them hit the wall between 40 and 50. Some of them appeared no different than a cancer or geriatric patient due to wasting syndrome. I had a 40 year old raw vegan runner that was malnourished and frail. She had the muscle mass and fragile skeletal structure of an 80 year old woman and looked many years older than her chronological age. She refused to believe that she was suffering from her raw vegan diet compounded by intense running because she thought it was healthy. Talk about cognitive dissonance. Her running abruptly stopped when she suffered a bad shatter type of leg fracture that required surgery. This was not uncommon with my vegan patients that were runners.
Wonder why strictly vegan men, especially when consuming raw plants, are often underweight and simpy? Alongside the malnutrition of essential proteins, fats, and minerals, there is the problem of enterolignans - specifically phytoestrogens. Besides all the environmental pseudo estrogen exposure from chemicals, vegan diets drive estrogen receptor activation thereby contributing to hormonal imbalances for not only men, but women as well.
As you already stated, plant based polyphenols lack bioavailability. It is essentially a crap shoot as to how the body utilizes these polyphenolic compounds due to the interplay between gut microbiome and gut metabolites. The gut-brain connections here also cannot be understated - a huge topic in itself. Humans lack the enzymes necessary to break down cellulose and hemicellulose. Cooking plants helps to break down the cellulose to some extent but this process also removes nutrients. So even though some lab has identified a possible beneficial nutrient of a particular plant, in practice how much of that nutrient contained in a plant is actually taken up by the human body? In order to even come close to meet human nutritional needs, a person would have to consume massive amounts of plant material. This may bring onboard some nutrition, but as you already stated, besides the nutrients there is also an increased amount of other lignans or other compounds contained in that plant that may not be beneficial when consumed in larger amounts.
Now, this is not to say that in order to combat certain health challenges like obesity, cancer, diabetes, etc., that a vegan diet cannot be helpful. But, a vegan diet is not healthy over the long term. Humans are not strict herbivores. We eat animals that have already broken down and absorbed vital nutrients that humans then consume in a form that is more nutritionally dense than from the original source plants - providing that the animal sources themselves are clean. Give me a grass fed organic steak any day of the week.
She refused to believe that she was suffering from her raw vegan diet compounded by intense running because she thought it was healthy.
Yeah, that is probably just about the worst possible combination of diet and execise that anyone could do.
Probably a lot of vegans do it, though.
Wonder why strictly vegan men, especially when consuming raw plants, are often underweight and simpy?
Besides the increased estrogen uptake that you mention, I think that a vegan diet, due to its lack of nutrition, causes the body to break down proteins in the body to function properly. Over time, this leads to loss of muscle mass, yet all the carbs also contribute to accumulation of bodyfat. Hence, the "skinny fat" look, and the higher estrogen leads to the effeminate/simpy behavior.
So even though some lab has identified a possible beneficial nutrient of a particular plant, in practice how much of that nutrient contained in a plant is actually taken up by the human body?
That is a key issue that is entirely missed by most people -- especially vegans.
A few years ago, I read a paper from the University of Hawaii (cannot find it online anymore).
They stated that both beef and spinach have iron. However, the iron in spinach is the wrong kind for humans and not easily absorbed. Spinach has non-heme iron, whereas beef has heme iron.
The human body will absorb a certain amount of utilizable iron in 3 ounces of beef (less than 1/4 pound).
To get the same amount of iron from spinach, you would have to eat 10 cups.
That's just one example of how impractical a vegan diet is -- not to mention that the spinach also comes with a heaping helping of harmful anti-nutrients, which would likely prevent much absorption of the iron at all.
Yes, the bioavailability of nutrients when consuming plants, especially minerals, proteins, and fat soluble vitamins, are lacking in comparison to animal products no matter how much they try to say otherwise. The only way a vegan is going to avoid eventually becoming malnourished is by supplementation. The majority do not supplement beyond B12. Just taking some B12 is not going to cut it. Supplementation is a whole other discussion in itself regarding quality and effectiveness - they are not all created equal. Of course there are always outliers that do not seem to have issues, but they are in the minority.
As a clinician I was in a unique position to do comparisons between patient cohorts. Some of my background was in research. What I saw in my practice among my vegan patients caught my attention - especially considering this was a population focused so much on trying to be healthy. The athletically inclined raw vegans were the worst. These vegans In their mid forties often had bodies with little muscle mass and their bones were trashed. The lower extremity shatter types of fractures that required surgical intervention resulted from non traumatic related everyday activities - something I would have expected to see more from a geriatric patient. It appeared to me that this particular vegan cohort had a much higher level of these types of severe fractures versus the rest of my patient base. That was concerning and it got me taking a closer look.
My vegan patients, due to the lack of muscle mass, body fat, and possibly some level of nerve dysfunction, also often had problems retaining body heat and felt cold even in the summer. They didn't seem to think this was a problem because they thought they were healthy. Personally, these vegans at that point appeared to have a lot in common with anyone else suffering from an eating disorder. I once went to meet with the director of a new dietetic program at the local college to discuss the program. It was in the middle of summer and she had a floor heater. The room was like a sauna. She was a hard core vegan and also was a runner. This person was in charge of educating dietetic techs and the like that often end up in nursing homes and hospitals implementing diets and counseling according to FDA recommendations which currently is pushing a heavy plant based diet. I have been around long enough to have seen this shift over the years.
Education in organic and biochem is not lost on me. It always amazes me that this basic foundational science seems to be thrown out the window when moving into the applied science of many medically related fields. I often find myself at odds with others - not only when I was in college, but also professionally throughout the years. Diets are just one area that I do not agree with the mainstream narrative and consensus. Glad to see there are many like minded individuals in the house.
let them eat plants, be vegans and destroy themselves.. the lion diet people will be the only survivals left in the end. I'm tired of being mocked at everyday for all I believe in. We got the same access to the information out there but some people choose to close their eyes and let their doctors, teachers, govt, pharma decide their fate.
This sounds right out of Saladino's or Baker's book. Saladino who now eats around 300g of carbs from fruit/honey per day. ; )
I think this is an extreme perspective which can certainly be argued.
There is merit to some of it, I'm sure.
Any one of these claims can be argued, and that response can be debated to the end of the earth. Most folks are missing the bigger picture here. Including me.
Ya, I stopped studying this stuff because I could research all day every day and never find the TRUTH. If you're missing a couple of bits of information that could invalidate your entire argument, or the argument against your argument.
I know very healthy carnies and frankly I know very healthy vegans.
I also know people who had horrible things happen to them on a proper carnivore diet. And vegans as well.
The ONE THING I can say for sure is I have never seen ANYONE go backwards after giving up PROCESSED FOODS. Yes, I know our fruits and veggies aren't the same as they were 100 years ago. I know many fruits and veggies were man-made via cross-breeding / selective breeding to create new varieties with desirable traits such as flavor, sweetness, appearance, etc. By processed I mean boxed/packaged foods with 100 ingredients / chemicals.
Packaged foods are the #1 most important things to stop.
I've seen people fail on the keto diet. Eating lots of packaged foods still.
My theory is the REAL benefit of the carnivore diet is that with meat only, well, kinda forces one to give up all those packaged foods! And grains, eliminating grains can also have miraculous effects.
I myself go back and forth between more meat and less meat, frankly I find I do much better with LESS meat. Not NO meat, but less.
I doubt that will have much effect on vegans who think they are on the moral high ground.
The only thing I focus on is nutrition.
While plants do have nutrients, they have ZERO NUTRITION for humans.
The dietary nutrition that is necessary for humans to have optimal health is: amino acids (protein), fatty acids (saturated fat), vitamins and minerals. We don't NEED anything else to be healthy.
Plant protein is mostly not bioavailable to humans. This is due to (a) the nutrients are locked up in the fiber, which humans cannot digest and, therefore, cannot absorb and utilize (plus, protein needs saturated fat with it in order to be digested at all), (b) plants also have protease inhibitors which block the absorption of any protein that might actually get digested somehow, and (c) the amino acid profile in plants is wrong, so that even if we could get at the protein, ALL plants lack several amino acids and they are in the wrong proportions to each other. Contrast that with animal foods where the protein is HIGHLY bioavailable (97% for eggs, 95% for beef, vs. 5% for soy), it is easily digested, absorbed, and utilized by the human body, and the amino acid profile is ideal in that they have all the essential amino acids, and in the right proportions to each other.
Plant fats are not fats, for the most part. The couple of exceptions are avocado and coconut. All other plants have oils, not fats. Humans do not need plant oils, and in fact plant oils are very toxic and harmful to humans.
Plants do not have vitamins and minerals in the right amounts for humans, are missing some (A, B12, D, K2) altogether, and again are mostly locked up in the fiber so that our digestive system cannot access them -- until they reach the colon where SOME of them can be digested and absorbed due to the bacteria there.
The reason why other primates (apes, etc.) can and do eat plants (exclusively, usually) is because they have bacteria in their stomachs which can break down the fiber/cellulose.
Humans have ZERO bacteria in our stomachs.
Minerals are also not the right type or bioavailable for similar reasons.
In addition, plants have anti-nutrients, which vegans either don't even know about, or never talk about if they do know. These anti-nutrients block the absorption of minerals either partially or completely, depending on the plant.
Finally, ALL plants you will find in your supermarket have a MINIMUM of 60 known human carcinogens. Most have over 100.
Plants cause cancer in humans by way of toxic chemicals (so-called "phytonutrients," which is just a fancy term for plant chemicals).
Among these toxic chemicals are such things as cyanide. Two chemicals in broccoli will mix together when the plant stalk is bitten by an animal, and they will form cyanide. There are numerous similar examples.
Yum yum!
Anyone (i.e. vegans) who claim they care about the welfare of animals to the point where they don't want people to eat their optimal diet for optimal nutrition -- animal foods, in the form of meat, eggs, and dairy -- is a person who is delusional, uneducated, and hates people.
So ... fuck 'em.
Very good response and you hit many of the key issues associated with vegan diets.
Over time there are malabsorption issues that can, and often do, take their toll. As a clinician for over 25 years I can honestly say that my vegan patients presented with some specific health challenges that manifested at a much younger age than their meat eating cohort equivalents. This was especially true for raw vegans that engaged in high level athletic activities. The younger they were when they started on their path towards veganism, the younger these problems seem to manifest. Many of them hit the wall between 40 and 50. Some of them appeared no different than a cancer or geriatric patient due to wasting syndrome. I had a 40 year old raw vegan runner that was malnourished and frail. She had the muscle mass and fragile skeletal structure of an 80 year old woman and looked many years older than her chronological age. She refused to believe that she was suffering from her raw vegan diet compounded by intense running because she thought it was healthy. Talk about cognitive dissonance. Her running abruptly stopped when she suffered a bad shatter type of leg fracture that required surgery. This was not uncommon with my vegan patients that were runners.
Wonder why strictly vegan men, especially when consuming raw plants, are often underweight and simpy? Alongside the malnutrition of essential proteins, fats, and minerals, there is the problem of enterolignans - specifically phytoestrogens. Besides all the environmental pseudo estrogen exposure from chemicals, vegan diets drive estrogen receptor activation thereby contributing to hormonal imbalances for not only men, but women as well.
As you already stated, plant based polyphenols lack bioavailability. It is essentially a crap shoot as to how the body utilizes these polyphenolic compounds due to the interplay between gut microbiome and gut metabolites. The gut-brain connections here also cannot be understated - a huge topic in itself. Humans lack the enzymes necessary to break down cellulose and hemicellulose. Cooking plants helps to break down the cellulose to some extent but this process also removes nutrients. So even though some lab has identified a possible beneficial nutrient of a particular plant, in practice how much of that nutrient contained in a plant is actually taken up by the human body? In order to even come close to meet human nutritional needs, a person would have to consume massive amounts of plant material. This may bring onboard some nutrition, but as you already stated, besides the nutrients there is also an increased amount of other lignans or other compounds contained in that plant that may not be beneficial when consumed in larger amounts.
Now, this is not to say that in order to combat certain health challenges like obesity, cancer, diabetes, etc., that a vegan diet cannot be helpful. But, a vegan diet is not healthy over the long term. Humans are not strict herbivores. We eat animals that have already broken down and absorbed vital nutrients that humans then consume in a form that is more nutritionally dense than from the original source plants - providing that the animal sources themselves are clean. Give me a grass fed organic steak any day of the week.
Thank you for your informative comments.
Yeah, that is probably just about the worst possible combination of diet and execise that anyone could do.
Probably a lot of vegans do it, though.
Besides the increased estrogen uptake that you mention, I think that a vegan diet, due to its lack of nutrition, causes the body to break down proteins in the body to function properly. Over time, this leads to loss of muscle mass, yet all the carbs also contribute to accumulation of bodyfat. Hence, the "skinny fat" look, and the higher estrogen leads to the effeminate/simpy behavior.
That is a key issue that is entirely missed by most people -- especially vegans.
A few years ago, I read a paper from the University of Hawaii (cannot find it online anymore).
They stated that both beef and spinach have iron. However, the iron in spinach is the wrong kind for humans and not easily absorbed. Spinach has non-heme iron, whereas beef has heme iron.
The human body will absorb a certain amount of utilizable iron in 3 ounces of beef (less than 1/4 pound).
To get the same amount of iron from spinach, you would have to eat 10 cups.
That's just one example of how impractical a vegan diet is -- not to mention that the spinach also comes with a heaping helping of harmful anti-nutrients, which would likely prevent much absorption of the iron at all.
Thanks for the response.
Yes, the bioavailability of nutrients when consuming plants, especially minerals, proteins, and fat soluble vitamins, are lacking in comparison to animal products no matter how much they try to say otherwise. The only way a vegan is going to avoid eventually becoming malnourished is by supplementation. The majority do not supplement beyond B12. Just taking some B12 is not going to cut it. Supplementation is a whole other discussion in itself regarding quality and effectiveness - they are not all created equal. Of course there are always outliers that do not seem to have issues, but they are in the minority.
As a clinician I was in a unique position to do comparisons between patient cohorts. Some of my background was in research. What I saw in my practice among my vegan patients caught my attention - especially considering this was a population focused so much on trying to be healthy. The athletically inclined raw vegans were the worst. These vegans In their mid forties often had bodies with little muscle mass and their bones were trashed. The lower extremity shatter types of fractures that required surgical intervention resulted from non traumatic related everyday activities - something I would have expected to see more from a geriatric patient. It appeared to me that this particular vegan cohort had a much higher level of these types of severe fractures versus the rest of my patient base. That was concerning and it got me taking a closer look.
My vegan patients, due to the lack of muscle mass, body fat, and possibly some level of nerve dysfunction, also often had problems retaining body heat and felt cold even in the summer. They didn't seem to think this was a problem because they thought they were healthy. Personally, these vegans at that point appeared to have a lot in common with anyone else suffering from an eating disorder. I once went to meet with the director of a new dietetic program at the local college to discuss the program. It was in the middle of summer and she had a floor heater. The room was like a sauna. She was a hard core vegan and also was a runner. This person was in charge of educating dietetic techs and the like that often end up in nursing homes and hospitals implementing diets and counseling according to FDA recommendations which currently is pushing a heavy plant based diet. I have been around long enough to have seen this shift over the years.
Education in organic and biochem is not lost on me. It always amazes me that this basic foundational science seems to be thrown out the window when moving into the applied science of many medically related fields. I often find myself at odds with others - not only when I was in college, but also professionally throughout the years. Diets are just one area that I do not agree with the mainstream narrative and consensus. Glad to see there are many like minded individuals in the house.
Thanks again.
Wow, I didn't know most of this info. But I am mostly a meat eater. I do like some garlic bread with my steak !
let them eat plants, be vegans and destroy themselves.. the lion diet people will be the only survivals left in the end. I'm tired of being mocked at everyday for all I believe in. We got the same access to the information out there but some people choose to close their eyes and let their doctors, teachers, govt, pharma decide their fate.
This sounds right out of Saladino's or Baker's book. Saladino who now eats around 300g of carbs from fruit/honey per day. ; ) I think this is an extreme perspective which can certainly be argued. There is merit to some of it, I'm sure. Any one of these claims can be argued, and that response can be debated to the end of the earth. Most folks are missing the bigger picture here. Including me.
Ya, I stopped studying this stuff because I could research all day every day and never find the TRUTH. If you're missing a couple of bits of information that could invalidate your entire argument, or the argument against your argument. I know very healthy carnies and frankly I know very healthy vegans. I also know people who had horrible things happen to them on a proper carnivore diet. And vegans as well. The ONE THING I can say for sure is I have never seen ANYONE go backwards after giving up PROCESSED FOODS. Yes, I know our fruits and veggies aren't the same as they were 100 years ago. I know many fruits and veggies were man-made via cross-breeding / selective breeding to create new varieties with desirable traits such as flavor, sweetness, appearance, etc. By processed I mean boxed/packaged foods with 100 ingredients / chemicals. Packaged foods are the #1 most important things to stop. I've seen people fail on the keto diet. Eating lots of packaged foods still. My theory is the REAL benefit of the carnivore diet is that with meat only, well, kinda forces one to give up all those packaged foods! And grains, eliminating grains can also have miraculous effects. I myself go back and forth between more meat and less meat, frankly I find I do much better with LESS meat. Not NO meat, but less.