Very good response and you hit many of the key issues associated with vegan diets.
Over time there are malabsorption issues that can, and often do, take their toll. As a clinician for over 25 years I can honestly say that my vegan patients presented with some specific health challenges that manifested at a much younger age than their meat eating cohort equivalents. This was especially true for raw vegans that engaged in high level athletic activities. The younger they were when they started on their path towards veganism, the younger these problems seem to manifest. Many of them hit the wall between 40 and 50. Some of them appeared no different than a cancer or geriatric patient due to wasting syndrome. I had a 40 year old raw vegan runner that was malnourished and frail. She had the muscle mass and fragile skeletal structure of an 80 year old woman and looked many years older than her chronological age. She refused to believe that she was suffering from her raw vegan diet compounded by intense running because she thought it was healthy. Talk about cognitive dissonance. Her running abruptly stopped when she suffered a bad shatter type of leg fracture that required surgery. This was not uncommon with my vegan patients that were runners.
Wonder why strictly vegan men, especially when consuming raw plants, are often underweight and simpy? Alongside the malnutrition of essential proteins, fats, and minerals, there is the problem of enterolignans - specifically phytoestrogens. Besides all the environmental pseudo estrogen exposure from chemicals, vegan diets drive estrogen receptor activation thereby contributing to hormonal imbalances for not only men, but women as well.
As you already stated, plant based polyphenols lack bioavailability. It is essentially a crap shoot as to how the body utilizes these polyphenolic compounds due to the interplay between gut microbiome and gut metabolites. The gut-brain connections here also cannot be understated - a huge topic in itself. Humans lack the enzymes necessary to break down cellulose and hemicellulose. Cooking plants helps to break down the cellulose to some extent but this process also removes nutrients. So even though some lab has identified a possible beneficial nutrient of a particular plant, in practice how much of that nutrient contained in a plant is actually taken up by the human body? In order to even come close to meet human nutritional needs, a person would have to consume massive amounts of plant material. This may bring onboard some nutrition, but as you already stated, besides the nutrients there is also an increased amount of other lignans or other compounds contained in that plant that may not be beneficial when consumed in larger amounts.
Now, this is not to say that in order to combat certain health challenges like obesity, cancer, diabetes, etc., that a vegan diet cannot be helpful. But, a vegan diet is not healthy over the long term. Humans are not strict herbivores. We eat animals that have already broken down and absorbed vital nutrients that humans then consume in a form that is more nutritionally dense than from the original source plants - providing that the animal sources themselves are clean. Give me a grass fed organic steak any day of the week.
She refused to believe that she was suffering from her raw vegan diet compounded by intense running because she thought it was healthy.
Yeah, that is probably just about the worst possible combination of diet and execise that anyone could do.
Probably a lot of vegans do it, though.
Wonder why strictly vegan men, especially when consuming raw plants, are often underweight and simpy?
Besides the increased estrogen uptake that you mention, I think that a vegan diet, due to its lack of nutrition, causes the body to break down proteins in the body to function properly. Over time, this leads to loss of muscle mass, yet all the carbs also contribute to accumulation of bodyfat. Hence, the "skinny fat" look, and the higher estrogen leads to the effeminate/simpy behavior.
So even though some lab has identified a possible beneficial nutrient of a particular plant, in practice how much of that nutrient contained in a plant is actually taken up by the human body?
That is a key issue that is entirely missed by most people -- especially vegans.
A few years ago, I read a paper from the University of Hawaii (cannot find it online anymore).
They stated that both beef and spinach have iron. However, the iron in spinach is the wrong kind for humans and not easily absorbed. Spinach has non-heme iron, whereas beef has heme iron.
The human body will absorb a certain amount of utilizable iron in 3 ounces of beef (less than 1/4 pound).
To get the same amount of iron from spinach, you would have to eat 10 cups.
That's just one example of how impractical a vegan diet is -- not to mention that the spinach also comes with a heaping helping of harmful anti-nutrients, which would likely prevent much absorption of the iron at all.
Yes, the bioavailability of nutrients when consuming plants, especially minerals, proteins, and fat soluble vitamins, are lacking in comparison to animal products no matter how much they try to say otherwise. The only way a vegan is going to avoid eventually becoming malnourished is by supplementation. The majority do not supplement beyond B12. Just taking some B12 is not going to cut it. Supplementation is a whole other discussion in itself regarding quality and effectiveness - they are not all created equal. Of course there are always outliers that do not seem to have issues, but they are in the minority.
As a clinician I was in a unique position to do comparisons between patient cohorts. Some of my background was in research. What I saw in my practice among my vegan patients caught my attention - especially considering this was a population focused so much on trying to be healthy. The athletically inclined raw vegans were the worst. These vegans In their mid forties often had bodies with little muscle mass and their bones were trashed. The lower extremity shatter types of fractures that required surgical intervention resulted from non traumatic related everyday activities - something I would have expected to see more from a geriatric patient. It appeared to me that this particular vegan cohort had a much higher level of these types of severe fractures versus the rest of my patient base. That was concerning and it got me taking a closer look.
My vegan patients, due to the lack of muscle mass, body fat, and possibly some level of nerve dysfunction, also often had problems retaining body heat and felt cold even in the summer. They didn't seem to think this was a problem because they thought they were healthy. Personally, these vegans at that point appeared to have a lot in common with anyone else suffering from an eating disorder. I once went to meet with the director of a new dietetic program at the local college to discuss the program. It was in the middle of summer and she had a floor heater. The room was like a sauna. She was a hard core vegan and also was a runner. This person was in charge of educating dietetic techs and the like that often end up in nursing homes and hospitals implementing diets and counseling according to FDA recommendations which currently is pushing a heavy plant based diet. I have been around long enough to have seen this shift over the years.
Education in organic and biochem is not lost on me. It always amazes me that this basic foundational science seems to be thrown out the window when moving into the applied science of many medically related fields. I often find myself at odds with others - not only when I was in college, but also professionally throughout the years. Diets are just one area that I do not agree with the mainstream narrative and consensus. Glad to see there are many like minded individuals in the house.
Very good response and you hit many of the key issues associated with vegan diets.
Over time there are malabsorption issues that can, and often do, take their toll. As a clinician for over 25 years I can honestly say that my vegan patients presented with some specific health challenges that manifested at a much younger age than their meat eating cohort equivalents. This was especially true for raw vegans that engaged in high level athletic activities. The younger they were when they started on their path towards veganism, the younger these problems seem to manifest. Many of them hit the wall between 40 and 50. Some of them appeared no different than a cancer or geriatric patient due to wasting syndrome. I had a 40 year old raw vegan runner that was malnourished and frail. She had the muscle mass and fragile skeletal structure of an 80 year old woman and looked many years older than her chronological age. She refused to believe that she was suffering from her raw vegan diet compounded by intense running because she thought it was healthy. Talk about cognitive dissonance. Her running abruptly stopped when she suffered a bad shatter type of leg fracture that required surgery. This was not uncommon with my vegan patients that were runners.
Wonder why strictly vegan men, especially when consuming raw plants, are often underweight and simpy? Alongside the malnutrition of essential proteins, fats, and minerals, there is the problem of enterolignans - specifically phytoestrogens. Besides all the environmental pseudo estrogen exposure from chemicals, vegan diets drive estrogen receptor activation thereby contributing to hormonal imbalances for not only men, but women as well.
As you already stated, plant based polyphenols lack bioavailability. It is essentially a crap shoot as to how the body utilizes these polyphenolic compounds due to the interplay between gut microbiome and gut metabolites. The gut-brain connections here also cannot be understated - a huge topic in itself. Humans lack the enzymes necessary to break down cellulose and hemicellulose. Cooking plants helps to break down the cellulose to some extent but this process also removes nutrients. So even though some lab has identified a possible beneficial nutrient of a particular plant, in practice how much of that nutrient contained in a plant is actually taken up by the human body? In order to even come close to meet human nutritional needs, a person would have to consume massive amounts of plant material. This may bring onboard some nutrition, but as you already stated, besides the nutrients there is also an increased amount of other lignans or other compounds contained in that plant that may not be beneficial when consumed in larger amounts.
Now, this is not to say that in order to combat certain health challenges like obesity, cancer, diabetes, etc., that a vegan diet cannot be helpful. But, a vegan diet is not healthy over the long term. Humans are not strict herbivores. We eat animals that have already broken down and absorbed vital nutrients that humans then consume in a form that is more nutritionally dense than from the original source plants - providing that the animal sources themselves are clean. Give me a grass fed organic steak any day of the week.
Thank you for your informative comments.
Yeah, that is probably just about the worst possible combination of diet and execise that anyone could do.
Probably a lot of vegans do it, though.
Besides the increased estrogen uptake that you mention, I think that a vegan diet, due to its lack of nutrition, causes the body to break down proteins in the body to function properly. Over time, this leads to loss of muscle mass, yet all the carbs also contribute to accumulation of bodyfat. Hence, the "skinny fat" look, and the higher estrogen leads to the effeminate/simpy behavior.
That is a key issue that is entirely missed by most people -- especially vegans.
A few years ago, I read a paper from the University of Hawaii (cannot find it online anymore).
They stated that both beef and spinach have iron. However, the iron in spinach is the wrong kind for humans and not easily absorbed. Spinach has non-heme iron, whereas beef has heme iron.
The human body will absorb a certain amount of utilizable iron in 3 ounces of beef (less than 1/4 pound).
To get the same amount of iron from spinach, you would have to eat 10 cups.
That's just one example of how impractical a vegan diet is -- not to mention that the spinach also comes with a heaping helping of harmful anti-nutrients, which would likely prevent much absorption of the iron at all.
Thanks for the response.
Yes, the bioavailability of nutrients when consuming plants, especially minerals, proteins, and fat soluble vitamins, are lacking in comparison to animal products no matter how much they try to say otherwise. The only way a vegan is going to avoid eventually becoming malnourished is by supplementation. The majority do not supplement beyond B12. Just taking some B12 is not going to cut it. Supplementation is a whole other discussion in itself regarding quality and effectiveness - they are not all created equal. Of course there are always outliers that do not seem to have issues, but they are in the minority.
As a clinician I was in a unique position to do comparisons between patient cohorts. Some of my background was in research. What I saw in my practice among my vegan patients caught my attention - especially considering this was a population focused so much on trying to be healthy. The athletically inclined raw vegans were the worst. These vegans In their mid forties often had bodies with little muscle mass and their bones were trashed. The lower extremity shatter types of fractures that required surgical intervention resulted from non traumatic related everyday activities - something I would have expected to see more from a geriatric patient. It appeared to me that this particular vegan cohort had a much higher level of these types of severe fractures versus the rest of my patient base. That was concerning and it got me taking a closer look.
My vegan patients, due to the lack of muscle mass, body fat, and possibly some level of nerve dysfunction, also often had problems retaining body heat and felt cold even in the summer. They didn't seem to think this was a problem because they thought they were healthy. Personally, these vegans at that point appeared to have a lot in common with anyone else suffering from an eating disorder. I once went to meet with the director of a new dietetic program at the local college to discuss the program. It was in the middle of summer and she had a floor heater. The room was like a sauna. She was a hard core vegan and also was a runner. This person was in charge of educating dietetic techs and the like that often end up in nursing homes and hospitals implementing diets and counseling according to FDA recommendations which currently is pushing a heavy plant based diet. I have been around long enough to have seen this shift over the years.
Education in organic and biochem is not lost on me. It always amazes me that this basic foundational science seems to be thrown out the window when moving into the applied science of many medically related fields. I often find myself at odds with others - not only when I was in college, but also professionally throughout the years. Diets are just one area that I do not agree with the mainstream narrative and consensus. Glad to see there are many like minded individuals in the house.
Thanks again.