I recently witnessed someone making a similar argument about tattoos, trying to point out the biblical basis for not having them, while also not realizing that there were people with arm sleeves in the room as he did so.
It is very difficult to apply the discouragement of the act, separate it from the outcomes, and simply encourage to not advocate or continue in the act, all without coming off as holier-than-thou, which the man speaking to you failed at quite considerably.
The verse denouncing HIS actions is 1 Corinthians 13:1.
If I speak with the languages of men and of angels, but don't have love, I have become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
It is easy to fall into that.
Knowing others, also with beautiful children conceived through IVF, it is a delicate subject. We can also separate the outcomes from our dispassionate testing of the act itself, as we know very well that the ends do not necessarily justify the means, and it is the means that should be considered here. If multiple embryos are fertilized as part of IVF, and the divine spark occurs at fertilization, and multiple fertilized embryos are destroyed later, it is worth thinking about what might actually be taking place, while also looking into what sorts of decisions and social patterns result in the need for this procedure, whether it is correct or errant, as in either path it does contain health risks and severe expenses that could better be used elsewhere. Many IVF patients likely never considered this aspect of discarded, fertilized embryos, and the doctors probably don’t bring it up…
What’s most important is that we discern the truth and always seek to repent of any failures and walk in it, whatever it may be. Don’t let them affect the opinion of the past or present, but only of constructive, righteous thought and decisions moving forward, in the same way Jesus instructed the woman he saved from being stoned. “Neither do I condemn you.”
Firepit, an unusual name for someone seeking holiness, would do well to learn from that example. I have tried to allow the grace for his actions here as well, while also pointing out his failure. Hopefully this comment is more appropriate toward all involved. I felt his comment had to be corrected in its tone, rather than left standing.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Truth be told 10 years ago when we were going through IVF I was not a religious person or a man of faith by any stretch of thr imagination. We never to church, I never cracked open a bible.
Fast forward to today and I am 3 years into my journey with Christ. I've seen and read things that do make me question the ethics of IVF and multiple embryos.
I certainly do not regret that we chose the IVF route and honestly looking back there is evidence of the hand of God nudging things in our favor.
For instance my wife's insurance only covered 2 IVF cycles. Both cycles were a failure BUT some how some way there was no record at all of our 2nd cycle. It was definitely billed to our insurance but our insurance only had . evidence of 1 cycle being completed. That never happens. Insurances don't just pay an extra $50-70k. And the our son was our final embryo and his embryo was extremely low quality to the point the embryo would not normally be used.
I'm also a 28 year cancer patient/survivor. I was told I was going to die in 2002 by my doctors. I was given sorry we can't do anything but make you comfortable speech. But here I am making this post 22 years later as a happily married husband and father.
Today I feel excessively blessed to have a 9 year old son when we should not have a child at all. I pray and thank God profusely every single day. We are nothing without God and I strive to walk the straight and narrow every day. I'm very much a work in progress but I love the progress that I've made following His path and will continue to try my best for Him.
I just didn’t want to leave that sour reply as the final say, because there is good information to consider here, and he, if he sees it, needs to remember the guidance about not being a clanging cymbal as well. Glad it was worded better!
I recently witnessed someone making a similar argument about tattoos, trying to point out the biblical basis for not having them, while also not realizing that there were people with arm sleeves in the room as he did so.
It is very difficult to apply the discouragement of the act, separate it from the outcomes, and simply encourage to not advocate or continue in the act, all without coming off as holier-than-thou, which the man speaking to you failed at quite considerably.
The verse denouncing HIS actions is 1 Corinthians 13:1.
It is easy to fall into that.
Knowing others, also with beautiful children conceived through IVF, it is a delicate subject. We can also separate the outcomes from our dispassionate testing of the act itself, as we know very well that the ends do not necessarily justify the means, and it is the means that should be considered here. If multiple embryos are fertilized as part of IVF, and the divine spark occurs at fertilization, and multiple fertilized embryos are destroyed later, it is worth thinking about what might actually be taking place, while also looking into what sorts of decisions and social patterns result in the need for this procedure, whether it is correct or errant, as in either path it does contain health risks and severe expenses that could better be used elsewhere. Many IVF patients likely never considered this aspect of discarded, fertilized embryos, and the doctors probably don’t bring it up…
What’s most important is that we discern the truth and always seek to repent of any failures and walk in it, whatever it may be. Don’t let them affect the opinion of the past or present, but only of constructive, righteous thought and decisions moving forward, in the same way Jesus instructed the woman he saved from being stoned. “Neither do I condemn you.”
Firepit, an unusual name for someone seeking holiness, would do well to learn from that example. I have tried to allow the grace for his actions here as well, while also pointing out his failure. Hopefully this comment is more appropriate toward all involved. I felt his comment had to be corrected in its tone, rather than left standing.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Truth be told 10 years ago when we were going through IVF I was not a religious person or a man of faith by any stretch of thr imagination. We never to church, I never cracked open a bible. Fast forward to today and I am 3 years into my journey with Christ. I've seen and read things that do make me question the ethics of IVF and multiple embryos. I certainly do not regret that we chose the IVF route and honestly looking back there is evidence of the hand of God nudging things in our favor. For instance my wife's insurance only covered 2 IVF cycles. Both cycles were a failure BUT some how some way there was no record at all of our 2nd cycle. It was definitely billed to our insurance but our insurance only had . evidence of 1 cycle being completed. That never happens. Insurances don't just pay an extra $50-70k. And the our son was our final embryo and his embryo was extremely low quality to the point the embryo would not normally be used. I'm also a 28 year cancer patient/survivor. I was told I was going to die in 2002 by my doctors. I was given sorry we can't do anything but make you comfortable speech. But here I am making this post 22 years later as a happily married husband and father. Today I feel excessively blessed to have a 9 year old son when we should not have a child at all. I pray and thank God profusely every single day. We are nothing without God and I strive to walk the straight and narrow every day. I'm very much a work in progress but I love the progress that I've made following His path and will continue to try my best for Him.
HalleluYah, and amein!
I just didn’t want to leave that sour reply as the final say, because there is good information to consider here, and he, if he sees it, needs to remember the guidance about not being a clanging cymbal as well. Glad it was worded better!