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I appreciate your willingness to engage with these complex topics. Forgive me for the long reply here, but these subjects require a little more explanation than normal.
Regarding the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel, while you maintain there is no gap, the text itself may provide evidence for a gap between the 69th and 70th week.
In Daniel 9:27, the prophecy states, "And he will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven,' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
This prophecy aligns with other passages that speak of the "abomination of desolation," a key event in end-times prophecy. Jesus Himself referred to this event in Matthew 24:15-21, linking it to a future time of great tribulation: "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains... For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."
The apostle Paul also references the "abomination of desolation" in his letters, specifically in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, where he speaks of a future event:
That passage aligns with the concept of the abomination of desolation, where a figure of great evil (the Antichrist) will desecrate the temple in Jerusalem during a future period of tribulation.
Paul's mention of this event as something yet to come, along with similar passages in the New Testament, supports the idea that certain aspects of end-times prophecy, such as the 70th week of Daniel and the abomination of desolation, are still awaiting fulfillment. This reinforces the futurist interpretation of these prophecies, suggesting that they will be fulfilled in a future period of tribulation preceding Christ's return.
The description of the great tribulation in Matthew 24 and other passages (such as Revelation 7:14) portrays a period of unprecedented suffering and turmoil that has not yet been fulfilled in history. This, of course, aligns with a futurist interpretation of end-times events, suggesting that the 70th week of Daniel, including the abomination of desolation, is yet to come.
Furthermore, the idea of a gap within a prophetic timeline is not unprecedented in biblical prophecy. For example, in Luke 4:16-21, Jesus reads from the scroll of Isaiah and stops mid-sentence, implying a gap in the fulfillment of that prophecy. He reads, "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor." He then stops before reading, "and the day of vengeance of our God." This "gap" suggests that the fulfillment of the latter part of this prophecy has a future aspect, which aligns with the concept of a gap in the 70 weeks prophecy.
One thing to keep in mind when discussing Hebrew prophecy is that the Church Age, which was not fully revealed to the Old Testament prophets, introduces the possibility of gaps in biblical prophecy. The concept of the Church Age as a mystery is a significant aspect of biblical theology. The apostle Paul, in Ephesians 3:4-6, describes this mystery as the inclusion of the Gentiles in God's redemptive plan through faith in Christ. He explains that this mystery was not made known to previous generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.
This imagery can be likened to looking at two distant mountain peaks - one behind the other - without being able to see the valley between them. The Old Testament prophets, while they foresaw the coming of the Messiah and the establishment of God's kingdom, did not have a clear view of the Church Age—the period between Christ's first and second comings—where the Gentiles would be included as fellow heirs with the Jews in the body of Christ.
This hidden period, in which Gentiles are included in God's plan of salvation through faith in Christ, was gradually unveiled through the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. This theological insight suggests that there may be gaps or undisclosed periods in other prophecies, especially concerning the timing and nature of future events, awaiting fulfillment in God's sovereign timing.
Considering the above points, do you see the possibility that the 70th week of Daniel, including the abomination of desolation, is yet future and part of a future tribulation period?
The interpretation you've presented suggests that the entire 70th week of Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled in the events surrounding the stoning of Stephen and the subsequent spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles. However, there are several reasons why this view faces challenges in aligning with the biblical text:
Duration of the 70th Week: The prophecy in Daniel 9:27 indicates that the 70th week would be a seven-year period (one 'seven' in biblical language often denotes a week of years, i.e., seven years). The idea that the 70th week was split into two parts with a gap between them, as you suggest, is not explicitly supported by the text.
Specific Events in the 70th Week: The events described in Daniel 9:27 for the 70th week, such as the confirming of a covenant and the setting up of the abomination of desolation, are typically understood in a future eschatological context and have not been historically fulfilled in the manner you describe.
Jesus' Ministry and the 70th Week: Your view suggests that the ministry of Jesus and the subsequent events, including the stoning of Stephen, encompassed the entire 70th week. However, this timeline does not align with the chronology presented in the Gospels or the book of Acts.
Continuity of the Prophecy: The prophecy in Daniel 9 concerning the 70 weeks is presented as a continuous timeline leading up to the Messiah. Interpreting the 70th week as having been partially fulfilled in the past and then halted for an extended period of time raises questions about the continuity and coherence of the prophecy.
In light of these considerations, it seems that the interpretation you've offered, while seeking to make sense of the timeline of events, may not fully align with the details and structure of the 70 weeks prophecy as presented in Daniel 9.
The concept of cosmic language in apocalyptic literature referring to times of great judgment is not unique to the Bible but is a common feature in ancient Near Eastern and Jewish apocalyptic texts. For example, in the Book of Enoch, similar cosmic imagery is used to depict eschatological events. The darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of stars, are used symbolically to signify the collapse of earthly powers and the arrival of divine judgment.
Moreover, in the broader context of ancient Near Eastern literature, cosmic phenomena were often seen as omens or signs of significant events, including divine intervention or the overthrow of rulers. These cosmic signs were believed to herald a time of great change or upheaval in the world.
Therefore, interpreting the cosmic language in Revelation and other apocalyptic texts as having a hidden or secret meaning beyond their symbolic value as indicators of divine judgment is not necessary. The use of such imagery is a literary device employed to convey the dramatic and transformative nature of the events described in these texts, rather than indicating a hidden code or esoteric meaning.
I know I've said a lot here. Much to ruminate on. No need to rush on a response. I do enjoy, however, this exchange and the respectful manner in which you’re engaging. It's refreshing!
Indeed I am enjoying our discussion also. You've caused me to do a lot of digging and I feel like pulling my hair out from all the mess that has been made of this topic! It's a minefield of madness out there. I cannot delve into all the things you wrote right now, I barely was able to focus on what I managed to (thank you Jesus!). Here is the zone in which I've chosen to focus:
Until the stoning of Stephen the order was given by Jesus "go not into the way of the Gentiles". Why?
Daniel was given that 490 years were determined upon Israel and the Jews, "from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince" 69 weeks. At the end of the 69th week, the beginning of the 70th, Messiah the Prince would come and confirm the Covenant with many for 1 week. In the midst of the week He caused the sacrifices and oblations to cease by becoming the final, ultimate sacrifice. The Covenant in His blood continued to be confirmed (to Israel) until the stoning of Stephen when they finally, after hearing the Gospel preached to the San Hedrin, the Gospel of the Kingdom of Christ, fully rejected the One they crucified on the cross, stoning Stephen, their final God-sent prophet, to shut him up.
I found a graphic which quite easily portrays the timeline (this was not an easy find!): https://files.catbox.moe/i8ite8.jpeg
Views on prophetic fulfillment aside do we at least agree on these numbers?
Yes, this is the classic Preterist interpretation of Daniels 70th week prophecy.
Let's try a different angle and see what we can find from other scriptural references regarding the Antichrist and his actions as they pertain to stopping sacrifices and the Abomination of Desolation (AoD). This may shed some light on why the "he" in Dan 9:27 most likely refers to the AC, not Jesus, thus confirming a gap (commonly referred to the Church Age or the Times of the Gentiles [see Luke 21:24]) of an unspecified period of time between the 69th and 70th week.
"He will confirm a covenant": The identity of the one who confirms the covenant is not explicitly stated in Daniel 9:27. Some argue, as you do, that it refers to the Messiah (Jesus) based on interpretations that the "covenant" refers to the new covenant in Christ's blood (Luke 22:20). However, this is not directly stated in Daniel 9:27.
"In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering": The phrase "middle of the 'seven'" implies a period of time, possibly three and a half years into a seven-year period. This event is often associated with the actions of the Antichrist. However, the direct connection between this event and the Antichrist is not explicitly stated in Daniel 9:27 but is inferred based on other passages in the Bible that describe the actions of the Antichrist
When considering the verses above mentioning this "man" it becomes clearer that these are the actions of the Antichrist and not Jesus. If not Jesus, then there must be a gap between the 69th and 70th week. And that means we are currently in this gap - albeit nearing the end of this period quickly.
Dont feel alone in your searches through ancient prophecies trying to understand the times. You are in some good company, for even the OT prophets searched these predictions trying to figure out when they would occur:
~ 1 Peter 1:10-12
I think we're going in circles a bit. Do we agree on the numbers in the graphic at least?
Daniel 7:23Thus he said, The fourth beast (Rome) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24And the ten horns (European nations) out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first (papacy, a "priest-king"), and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: (calander changes and twisting of God's word to fit their agenda) and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (1260 years beginning in 607AD ending 1867AD)
The simple fact is there is no institution on earth which has lasted long enough to fit 1260 years into except the RCC, neither has there been a more powerful institution, with tenticles in all nations on the planet (think "missions") where the elected leaders pay the Vatican a visit then go back home and do what they were told!
Also, speaking of "preterist" I have found the actual names of the Jesuits who concocted both ends of this deception as well as some prominent vectors of "futurist" propagation:
FUTURISM
Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty- four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the anti-christ, a single individual, would:
Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
Abolish the Christian religion.
Deny Jesus Christ.
Be received by the Jews.
Pretend to be God.
Kill the two witnesses of God.
Conquer the world.
Another:
Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Disputationum Roberti Bellarmini De controversiis Christian fidei adversus hujus temporis haereticos, (Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time), in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of anti-christ into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years. (See Froom, Prophetic Faith, Vol. 2, pgs. 495 - 502).
Another:
A Treatise of Antichrist. Continuing the defence of Cardinall Bellarmines arguments, which inuincibly demonstrate, that the pope is not anti-christ. Against George Downam by Michael Christopherson priest ..., Volume 1 of 2 by the English Jesuit, Michael Walpole (1570-1624?), 1613 edition. Christopherson is a pseudonym for Walpole. The third chapter, titled "Wherein it is shewed, that anti-christ is not yet come", (pages 49-51) discusses the protestant (Lutheran) Matthias Flacius Illyricus (1520-1575) and his Catalogue of Witnesses to the Truth who before our day cried out against the Pope (Catalogus Testium Veritatis - Basel, 1556), his Magdeburg Centuries (Ecclesiastica Historia, 1559 - 1574), an ecclesiastical history of 13 volumes (1 volume per century) to 1298 A.D. which established from that history that the Bishop of Rome was the Antichrist, and a 1260 year spiritual reign of the papal anti-christ, proposed to be from 606 - 1866 A.D., with the Lord's judgment commencing in 1866! < this is very key to me as the USA severed all diplomatic relations with the Vatican due to their involvement in the Lincoln assassination in 1867!
Another:
Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesias en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"), under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben- Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the anti-christ was still off in the future. His manuscript was published in London, Spain, Mexico and Paris between 1811 and 1826.
More:
Margaret McDonald
Samuel Roffey Maitland
John Nelson Darby
Samuel Prideaux Tregelles
Cyrus Ingerson Scofield
PRETERISM
Proposed by the Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613), who wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. According to Alcazar (or Alcasar):
Revelation chapters 1-11 describes the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church.
Revelation 20 describe the final persecutions by anti-christ, who is identified as Caesar Nero (54- 68 A.D.), and judgment.
Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church.
The intent of both Futurism and Preterism was to be diversionary, to counter or offset the correct interpretation, and present alternatives, no matter how implausible they might be. The result is evident: ANTICHRIST IS MOVED EITHER FORWARD OR BACKWARD IN TIME.
Ribera puts the anti-christ into a future 3.5 literal years while Alcazar identifies the anti-christ as Nero. Both of them put anti-christ outside the Middle Ages and the Reformation period, identified by the OG Protestants as anti-christ's reign of 1260 prophetic years. That these interpretations differed so greatly mattered little. Catholicism, the supposedly divine and infallible interpreter of scripture, was presenting two vastly different and quite incompatible interpretations of prophecy in a desperate effort to counter the claims of the Reformers.
These seminaries have wholly abandoned the biblical teaching that the Roman Catholic Church is the apostate church, the harlot of Revelation, with the anti-christ papacy at its head, and instead serve to screen the papal anti-christ power from being perceived by their students.
Dallas Theological Seminary (a nondenominational Protestant school): Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952), a student of Cyrus Scofield, founded Evangelical Theological College (now DTS) in 1924, which is likely the most influential seminary in the United States today. Futurism, and the secret rapture (which they call the blessed hope), are covered in articles 18-20 of the DTS Full Doctrinal Statement.
Moody Bible Institute of Chicago: In 1890, C. I. Scofield began a Comprehensive Bible Correspondence Course, later taken over about 1914 by the Moody Bible Institute (Dwight. L. Moody, founder of the Moody Church, had converted Scofield, and Scofield preached and presided at Moody's funeral in 1899)
Western Theological Seminary (Reformed Church in America). Alma Mater of Tim LaHaye, founder of the Pre-trib Research Center, co- author of the Left Behind series of books, by far the most popular series promoting Futurism and the secret rapture, which has sold 20 million copies. The film version of the first book in the series has been produced by prophecy authors Peter and Paul Lalonde of Cloud Ten Pictures. Released first on video cassette, and then in theaters in early 2001, people who have seen Left Behind say it is confusing, and lacks a Gospel presentation of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, making it of little (if any) evangelistic value, much like TBN's Omega Code and Megiddo (Omega Code II).
Tim LaHaye School of Prophecy - opens in January 2002 on the campus of Liberty University, Lynchburg, V.A., Dr. Jerry Falwell - Chancellor. Tim LaHaye says he was impressed by the prophecy conferences of Albury Park and Powerscourt held in Britain in the 1820's and 1830's and this led directly to his co-founding the Pre- trib Research Center. Edward Irving and J. N. Darby attended, and apparently greatly influenced, these 19th century British prophecy conferences where the secret rapture and futurism gained in acceptance among Protestant prophecy scholars.
I wish I could let you borrow my eyes for a bit to show you what I see, as I'm sure you would like to do for me. This is all such a mess to sort through. What do you think of this list? Also again are we at least in agreement with the numbers in the graphic from the prior comment?
I think we can agree on the numbers, which is pretty simple math, but where we diverge is whether there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week, yes?
Thank you for the detailed list of influential scholars on both ends of the spectrum.
We may have to take a step back and address the underlying assumption that appears to be driving your views on eschatology (or avoiding some specific views of eschatology), namely, the assumption that the Jesuits are behind some conspiratorial distraction to keep us confused as to end time events, or at least who the Harlot is in Revelation.
I am convinced 100% that the Harlot in Revelation is not the RCC, but Jerusalem - and I can show this solely from the biblical text without making any prior assumptions.