What do you think?
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Yes I think so, also on the RCC it seems. You have to admit those numbers are dasting. It fits like a glove! 490 years accounted for on the nose to the stoning of Stephen / Gospel going to Gentiles and then 1260 years from 610 to 1870, the "Capture of Rome" which marked the end of the Papal States, which were territories in Italy directly ruled by the Pope. The Italian Army, led by King Victor Emmanuel II, seized control of Rome, effectively putting an end to the Pope's political power. Pope Pius IX, who had declared himself a prisoner in the Vatican, refused to recognize the new Italian government. This conflict between the church and the Italian state, known as the Roman Question, lasted until the Lateran Treaty of 1929, which established the Vatican City as an independent state. (deadly wound healed?)
I am going to be digging more into the 1260 years part as it is something I just found out about due to this chat
edit- also please tell me why you think the harlot is Jerusalem, if it's not too complicated lol. We need a whole separate board just for the chat it's so far into sub-sections 😂
If we allow the Bible to interpret itself, we find a strong textual argument for the harlot being Jerusalem. Let’s first take a look at how Israel is depicted in the Old Testament.
In the Old Testament, Jerusalem is metaphorically depicted as an unfaithful or adulterous woman due to its spiritual infidelity. These passages illustrate this imagery:
Isaiah 1:21: "How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers."
Hosea 9:1: "Do not rejoice, Israel; do not be jubilant like the other nations. For you have been unfaithful to your God; you love the wages of a prostitute at every threshing floor."
Jeremiah 3:3: "Therefore the showers have been withheld, and the spring rain has not come; yet you have the forehead of a whore; you refuse to be ashamed."
Jeremiah 2:20: "Long ago you broke off your yoke and tore off your bonds; you said, ‘I will not serve you!’ Indeed, on every high hill and under every spreading tree you lay down as a prostitute."
Jeremiah 3:1-11: This passage depicts God's relationship with Israel as a marriage covenant, with Israel depicted as an unfaithful wife who has turned to other gods and nations for security and provision. The imagery includes descriptions of adultery and prostitution to convey Israel's spiritual unfaithfulness.
These passages use strong imagery to convey the idea of Jerusalem's unfaithfulness and apostasy, aligning with the depiction of the Harlot in Revelation 17 as symbolic of Jerusalem's corruption and unfaithfulness.
Now, let’s take a look at how the apostle John (the author of revelation) defines who the harlot is.
Great City = Harlot = Jerusalem: In Revelation 17:18, the angel explicitly states that the "woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth." This identification links the Harlot with the "great city," which earlier in Revelation is identified as Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8).
You really can’t get any clearer than that.
This interpretation of Jerusalem, being the harlot, who rides/controls the beast (the kings and nations of the Earth) lines up precisely with what we are seeing in the great awakening. People are awakening to the fact that the New World order is a Jewish led World order.
You’ll notice, however, that the beast she rides eventually turns on her and devours her or destroys her in a single day. I believe we are in the midst of this “turning“ currently. The turning equals the “great awakening.“
This all points to the fact that what we’ve been calling the “New World order” or “the beast“ is really the harlot system led by the Jews. The beast, however, is what ultimately destroys the harlot system (middle of revelation 17) and ushers in the reign of the antichrist.
Calling the harlot system the beast system is, I think, part of the great deception that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24 that will deceive even the elect if that were possible.
I may have gone a little too far in my description here, but I think I’ve answered your original question about how the harlot equals Jerusalem in revelation 17 and 18. We can talk a little bit more about the implications of this interpretation if you’d like
Slight issue with this, 17:5 states that the woman is "the MOTHER of harlots and abominations of the earth", so this would be the "source-harlot", the one who harlot Jerusalem was BORN through. (aka the one through which the harlotry originated). We can agree that the usage of the word harlet is to refer to a people following other peoples' ways instead of their God's ways, yes? That is the essence of Babylon. They are just one giant slop-trough of customs, yes? So was Rome. There's another common denominator here and that is the compulsory worship of a political / religious leader. This can be seen in Caesar as well as the Popes, and no doubt was the case with Nimrod. In the OT Babylon was the first organized, political and religious power. (tower of Babel) so it makes sense to me that this was the originating source from which Jerusalem got it's "harlot ways" from, as well as all the other nations. Of course Jerusalem would have picked up these ways from many places other than Babylon, but Babylon was where those nations got them from aswell, going back to the tower before God split them all up when confusing the tonges. It all begun in Babylon and will end in Babylon with her destruction. I conclude that Rome was and is the culmunation of Babylon, thus "Babylon the Great", bringing in all aspects of every "Babylonian Mystery Religion" including sun worship, mother worship, idol worship, talking to the dead, bowing to a man (aka submitting to his authority in religion above the Spirit of God), taking your doctrines from man instead of God, human sacrifice, polytheism* (now replaced with "saint worship") etc. (I am not excluding the Jews and other tribes of Israel from their abominations, only saying that these practices did not originate with them, they were adopted by them, from other nations, from Babel).
Furthermore the city of Jerusalem, when compared to Rome, was not "great", while Rome was most certainly great, as was Babylon. Further still the Papacy and Rome have "ruled over the kings of the earth" for the longest successive period in history, and Israel / Jerusalem most certainly have not. If anything they have been one of the most ruled OVER nations in history.
Indeed God likened Jerusalem to a harlot who betrayed her covenant with Him by engaging in spiritual adultery with other nations. The metaphor of a harlot symbolizes Jerusalem's unfaithfulness and her pursuit of idolatry and immorality. However if these gentile nations had been acting in accord with God's will, being "laws unto themselves" as Paul wrote, then Jerusalem would not have been chastened for adopting their ways as they would be acceptable ways to God. The only reason it was an issue is because the ways they adopted were against God, and I claim these ways originated in Babel, continued through Babylon & Chaldea and culminated in Rome, aka Babylon the Great, who committed the worst offenses against the Saints of God in all of human history, up until the 1800s when they were inflicted with the deadly would, healed, and, I will admit, I haven't gotten much farther than this. It's a lot to digest especially when I also have to vomit years of preterism, futurism, and other oddities.
It's a bit tricky to follow due to a couple of page-scan errors but I found a PDF from 1899 which clearly lays out the prophecy's fulfillment. I would attempt to write this in summation but feel that the author did it so well that I'd probably make a mess of it. I have not read anything else in this PDF nor any other work by the author, but will probably do so.
Link: https://files.catbox.moe/yaicm2.pdf
p. 49 - p. 64 are the relevent bits if you would like to take a look but needless to say I am not convinced by your arguement. I agree that Jerusalem was likened to an harlot but it is more accurately said that they "played" the harlot, meaning that this was not their original essence, rather something they adopted later. The OG harlet is Babylon, the "mother". And that mother is now called "Rome".
Re:
Every passage except the one about her obstinance alludes to a period of: once clean, then made unclean. The tower of babel, I contend, was unclean from the beginning and is the source of the uncleanliness which Israel / Jerusalem soiled herself with. This is the key and the reason for the name "Mother of harlots". The mother is the place from which the children are brought forth from. Israel and Jerusalem are not said to be the source of these abominable practices. Other nations are. Where did they get them? Babel. And so Babel/Babelon/Babylon the Great, Rome, Papacy, Vatican, all the same. Now she has many children and gets others drunk with her doctrines, creeping in unawares. And this explains all the confusion surrounding the Apocalypse. Babylon defined. "Gate of the gods (many)", "confusion"
Babel, Babylon
From balal; confusion; Babel (i.e. Babylon), including Babylonia and the Babylonian empire -- Babel, Babylon.
see HEBREW balal
*initially mistakenly wrote 'polygamy' instead of polytheism
Sorry for taking so long with my response! I’m going to briefly address your main points, then bring up something I think we should have discussed before this engaging exchange:
Mother of Harlots:
Essence of Babylon:
Compulsory Worship of Political/Religious Leaders:
Origin of Political and Religious Power:
Jerusalem's Relative Greatness:
Papacy and Rome's Historical Influence:
Scriptural Support:
Given the significance of Jerusalem's role in biblical prophecy and its depiction in Revelation, it's important to consider when Revelation was written. The dating of Revelation is crucial because it affects the interpretation of its prophecies.
Early Date (Pre-70 A.D.):
Late Date (Post-70 A.D.):
Best Arguments for an Early Date:
Best Arguments for a Later Date:
Before we delve further into specific passages in Revelation, I believe it's crucial to discuss the dating of the book first. The timing of its writing is fundamental because it shapes how we interpret its purpose and fulfillment.
Would you agree?
Indeed John refers to her as the mother of harlots and abominations in the earth. You argue that Jerusalem was likened to an harlot, yes, but this isn't to call Jerusalem the mother, or source harlot. How could Jerusalem fit this ultimate label? Can you find me a better candidate for the mother of harlots and abominations in the earth than Nimrod's Tower of Babel and then Babylon? Why would God have such a problem with that system that He would take the extreme measure as to confuse the languages and scatter the people? God isn't the source of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33) so this step could almost be viewed as contrary to His nature! This was a dire situation indeed. Was Jerusalem the place from which all nations of the earth got their wicked ways from? Or did Jerusalem simply become polluted with them from somewhere like the other nations did? I wonder where that somewhere could be...
The Tower of Babel, I contend was the mother of harlots and abominations and if allowed to be completed there would be no hope for humanity. Look how dire things got during the middle ages, if not for the Protestant Reformation we very well may still face torture and death for this discussion! Rome had essentially built a tower (heirarchy) which had very real physical consequences for mankind. It was foretold in the Book of Revelation and the original Protestants all knew this and wrote about it extensively. Futurism and Preterism only came about recently (around 1500s) and were seeded by Jesuits to confuse us on the subject, and to marginalize us and render our debates impotent as we get lost in senseless weeds while missing main points due to dogmatic clingings. I don't subscribe to Preterism regardless of which ever views I hold that have been lumped in under that label,
If the date of the writing of the Book of Revelation was so crucial to understanding it would not God have compelled John to include it? I maintain that it's referring to a continuing religiopolitical system and so does not need to be viewed through these constraints. Saying that, I don't know when it was written.