Thanks for your response! Let's delve into the symbolism in Revelation 12-13 and see how it aligns with our discussion.
Revelation 12: The Pregnant Woman:
Your interpretation of the pregnant woman as representing the New Covenant and spirit-filled believers is insightful. Traditionally, many interpret the woman as Israel or the faithful remnant of God's people, who give birth to the Messiah (Revelation 12:1-2). This aligns with the imagery of the sun, moon, and stars, pointing to Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-11.
The dragon (Satan) trying to devour the child represents the efforts to destroy Jesus and, by extension, the early Christian movement (Revelation 12:4-5). Rome, under Herod, attempted to kill Jesus at birth (Matthew 2:13-16), and later, Roman persecution targeted Christians.
The Dragon's Pursuit (Revelation 12:13-17):
The dragon pursuing the woman and her offspring symbolizes ongoing persecution of the faithful. The flood from the serpent’s mouth (Revelation 12:15) can indeed be interpreted as false teachings or widespread deception aimed at diluting true faith.
Revelation 13: The Beasts:
The first beast from the sea represents the Roman Empire with its seven heads and ten horns (Revelation 13:1), symbolizing its power and authority. The distinction between pagan Rome and later Christianized Rome can be noted here.
The second beast from the earth, which looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon (Revelation 13:11), is often interpreted as the false prophet or the corrupt religious system that compels worship of the first beast. This could align with the idea of the Holy Roman Empire enforcing religious uniformity and persecution.
Wound and Healing (Revelation 13:3, 13:12):
The deadly wound of the first beast being healed could symbolize the resurgence of oppressive power. Some see this as the revival of Roman imperial power through the Holy Roman Empire or other forms of authoritarian control.
Faithful vs. Unfaithful Israel:
You’re right to consider the distinction between the faithful remnant of Israel and unfaithful Israel. Paul’s statement, "Not all Israel are of Israel" (Romans 9:6), highlights this division. In Revelation, this theme continues with the portrayal of faithful believers versus those who have turned away.
To sum up, while there are various interpretations, my view aligns with seeing the woman in Revelation 12 as representing Israel (based on the direct reference to Joseph’s dreams), the faithful remnant, or the early Christian community. The harlot in Revelation 17 could then symbolize Jerusalem in its state of apostasy, drawing from Old Testament references to Jerusalem as a harlot (Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; Ezekiel 16:1-43).
Your insights into the historical and symbolic aspects of Rome and its influence are valuable. I appreciate the dialogue and the opportunity to explore these profound texts together. Let’s keep discussing and see where our interpretations converge or diverge!
Ok ok, here me out. I think we're actually quite close on this. You said
Traditionally, many interpret the woman as Israel or the faithful remnant of God's people, who give birth to the Messiah (Revelation 12:1-2). This aligns with the imagery of the sun, moon, and stars, pointing to Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-11."
Can this not be attributed to both Israel and Christians? As it is said we are "grafted in" to the Israel vine, which would lump us together...And the Roman govt was there shortly after this "new thing" was being born to consume it! I can imagine how tricky for a believer it must have been to see that this "Holy Roman Empire" was not the same faith, there were probably many who saw it as a move of God, "look even the pagan Romans have converted!" at least until the overt wickedness begun (I assume this took some time but could be wrong).
So we have the birthing of a new (updated is probably a better term) faith, with God now dwelling in our hearts, and we have a political system (the dragon) there in wait and trying to devour this and make it into their own machination.
To sum up, while there are various interpretations, my view aligns with seeing the woman in Revelation 12 as representing Israel (based on the direct reference to Joseph’s dreams), the faithful remnant, or the early Christian community. The harlot in Revelation 17 could then symbolize Jerusalem in its state of apostasy, drawing from Old Testament references to Jerusalem as a harlot (Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; Ezekiel 16:1-43).
The harlot! Lets goo. So: if it's Jerusalem, how could it fit the title "mother" and also the description of "with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication"? I think these two are critical in ID'ing her. If you compare Jerusalem and Babylon, who had more of an influence over the kings of the earth? Israel was always pretty secluded and at the time of Christ they were basically dominated by Rome. How could Jerusalem be said to have influenced Rome in this way? I would argue that it was the other way around.. Rome influenced Jerusalem. Also, it's kind of cheeky as it's in her name itself "Mystery Babylon"... Why would she be called that? I believe John wrote Revelation in such coded language to not tip off the Roman gov't at the time or they would have stopped the circulation of the book. If it was Jerusalem in his crosshairs I don't see why he would need to veil it.
Thanks for your response! Let's delve into the symbolism in Revelation 12-13 and see how it aligns with our discussion.
Revelation 12: The Pregnant Woman:
The Dragon's Pursuit (Revelation 12:13-17):
Revelation 13: The Beasts:
Wound and Healing (Revelation 13:3, 13:12):
Faithful vs. Unfaithful Israel:
To sum up, while there are various interpretations, my view aligns with seeing the woman in Revelation 12 as representing Israel (based on the direct reference to Joseph’s dreams), the faithful remnant, or the early Christian community. The harlot in Revelation 17 could then symbolize Jerusalem in its state of apostasy, drawing from Old Testament references to Jerusalem as a harlot (Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; Ezekiel 16:1-43).
Your insights into the historical and symbolic aspects of Rome and its influence are valuable. I appreciate the dialogue and the opportunity to explore these profound texts together. Let’s keep discussing and see where our interpretations converge or diverge!
Ok ok, here me out. I think we're actually quite close on this. You said
Can this not be attributed to both Israel and Christians? As it is said we are "grafted in" to the Israel vine, which would lump us together...And the Roman govt was there shortly after this "new thing" was being born to consume it! I can imagine how tricky for a believer it must have been to see that this "Holy Roman Empire" was not the same faith, there were probably many who saw it as a move of God, "look even the pagan Romans have converted!" at least until the overt wickedness begun (I assume this took some time but could be wrong).
So we have the birthing of a new (updated is probably a better term) faith, with God now dwelling in our hearts, and we have a political system (the dragon) there in wait and trying to devour this and make it into their own machination.
The harlot! Lets goo. So: if it's Jerusalem, how could it fit the title "mother" and also the description of "with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication"? I think these two are critical in ID'ing her. If you compare Jerusalem and Babylon, who had more of an influence over the kings of the earth? Israel was always pretty secluded and at the time of Christ they were basically dominated by Rome. How could Jerusalem be said to have influenced Rome in this way? I would argue that it was the other way around.. Rome influenced Jerusalem. Also, it's kind of cheeky as it's in her name itself "Mystery Babylon"... Why would she be called that? I believe John wrote Revelation in such coded language to not tip off the Roman gov't at the time or they would have stopped the circulation of the book. If it was Jerusalem in his crosshairs I don't see why he would need to veil it.