34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
I think in that verse Jesus was using rhetorical language, primarily to convict those he was speaking to of their sins... But, I think the part that says "the servant abideth not in the house for ever" is not speaking of the promised land (physical), but spiritually speaking of God's house (heavenly realm). "Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." They are still physically children of Abraham but spiritually children of the devil. There is physical and there is spiritual. There is a physical kingdom promised to the physical descendants of Abraham, and that is pointing to a greater spiritual truth. The spiritual kingdom (heaven) is for the spiritual descendants of Abraham. The physical kingdom extends from the Nile to the Euphrates, whereas the spiritual kingdom is without end. You can see this same typological symbolism all over the place, for instance the physical temple and a physical tabernacle in Jerusalem point to God's heavenly temple and throne.
They are still physically children of Abraham but spiritually children of the devil. There is physical and there is spiritual.
"As above, so below" comes to mind, but I think that's some satanic concept iirc. Idk. I took Jesus' statements in these verses to actually be redefining, or rather properly defining, what God meant in His promise to Abraham, regardless of whether Abraham knew it at the time. One could argue though that this cannot be, by using some of Paul's writings about what advantage hath the Israelite of the flesh etc. Once again I must ask, how are we supposed to even know who's a real, blood-line Israelite anymore? Also, is it feasable that Abraham has had enough blood-line descendents to make the hyperbolic "as numerous as the stars in heaven" make sense? If we consider his "spiritual children", though, it would be a much larger number of descendents..
I think "numerous as the stars of heaven" and "as many as the sand on the seashore" should be seen as rhetorical and not taken literally, since it is not feasible for there to be that many people on the earth. There estimated to be as many as 20 trillion stars in the observable universe, and there is ~148 million square kilometers of land not covered by water on the earth's surface. Divide that space by 20 trillion and, by my calculations, I get that each person would have 0.74 square centimeters of space. That is tight AF.
What about counting them at birth (and/or 'New birth'), and keeping a running total sum as time progresses forward? I didn't mean to say all alive at the same time
How do we then consider John 8:34-40?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
I think in that verse Jesus was using rhetorical language, primarily to convict those he was speaking to of their sins... But, I think the part that says "the servant abideth not in the house for ever" is not speaking of the promised land (physical), but spiritually speaking of God's house (heavenly realm). "Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." They are still physically children of Abraham but spiritually children of the devil. There is physical and there is spiritual. There is a physical kingdom promised to the physical descendants of Abraham, and that is pointing to a greater spiritual truth. The spiritual kingdom (heaven) is for the spiritual descendants of Abraham. The physical kingdom extends from the Nile to the Euphrates, whereas the spiritual kingdom is without end. You can see this same typological symbolism all over the place, for instance the physical temple and a physical tabernacle in Jerusalem point to God's heavenly temple and throne.
"As above, so below" comes to mind, but I think that's some satanic concept iirc. Idk. I took Jesus' statements in these verses to actually be redefining, or rather properly defining, what God meant in His promise to Abraham, regardless of whether Abraham knew it at the time. One could argue though that this cannot be, by using some of Paul's writings about what advantage hath the Israelite of the flesh etc. Once again I must ask, how are we supposed to even know who's a real, blood-line Israelite anymore? Also, is it feasable that Abraham has had enough blood-line descendents to make the hyperbolic "as numerous as the stars in heaven" make sense? If we consider his "spiritual children", though, it would be a much larger number of descendents..
I think "numerous as the stars of heaven" and "as many as the sand on the seashore" should be seen as rhetorical and not taken literally, since it is not feasible for there to be that many people on the earth. There estimated to be as many as 20 trillion stars in the observable universe, and there is ~148 million square kilometers of land not covered by water on the earth's surface. Divide that space by 20 trillion and, by my calculations, I get that each person would have 0.74 square centimeters of space. That is tight AF.
What about counting them at birth (and/or 'New birth'), and keeping a running total sum as time progresses forward? I didn't mean to say all alive at the same time